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Health Care

GH2001

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2017, 07:44:14 AM »
Jim Acosta ✔ @Acosta
Trump told Tea Party groups at WH if GOP health care plan dies, he will let Obamacare fail and let Dems take the blame, I'm told.
8:35 PM - 8 Mar 2017

So, if he doesn't get his way, he's going stomp his feet and pout, then he's going to make sure millions of Americans die...blame it on the Democrats.

Everyone ignore the child. ^. And I thought townhall was the king of extreme hyperbole.
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GH2001

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #141 on: March 10, 2017, 07:46:02 AM »
I need someone to convince me that healthcare should be a free market commodity.

If we go back to the rulebook on this, Adam Smith would say that free enterprise requires choice.  The buyer must choose to be in the marketplace for free market principals to apply.

Who volunteers to get the flu?  Or cancer?

What about this Wes - what if it's free market but more in the mold of a 501c or non profit? Where they do turn a profit not wanting to operate in the red of course but where maybe the bottom line buck or stock price isn't maybe the main driver? Just a thought.
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wesfau2

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #142 on: March 10, 2017, 08:12:17 AM »
Yes. We do. 


Name one (legal) market in the United States that is purely capitalistic.

How can I have a "right" to someone else's time and services?  In order for me to receive healthcare, it has to be provided by someone else.  What do we do in the event of a doctor shortage?  Is the government going to force anyone with a RN, LPN, or PhD in medicine to work?  Not allow them to retire until they're 80?  What will be the incentive of going to medical school if I'm going to be capped in what I can make by the government?   

My rights end where someone else's begin.  I don't have a "right" to someone else's labor.

The "managed" market will create incentives for production.  I'm not saying that there is a binary choice: complete laissez faire or total market strangulation.  There is a continuum of regulation.

What about this Wes - what if it's free market but more in the mold of a 501c or non profit? Where they do turn a profit not wanting to operate in the red of course but where maybe the bottom line buck or stock price isn't maybe the main driver? Just a thought.

I'm not sure what you mean.  Take the "profit" out of healthcare altogether?  Great.  Let's start with pharma.
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Ogre

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #143 on: March 10, 2017, 08:26:21 AM »
Take the "profit" out of healthcare altogether?  Great.  Let's start with pharma.

I agree!  I'd follow immediately with tort reform.  Driving down the cost of medical malpractice insurance will surely help make healthcare more affordable. 
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Godfather

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2017, 08:29:42 AM »
Name one (legal) market in the United States that is purely capitalistic.

Alcohol and Strip Clubs...thats 2
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Kaos

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2017, 08:35:45 AM »
Name one (legal) market in the United States that is purely capitalistic.

The "managed" market will create incentives for production.  I'm not saying that there is a binary choice: complete laissez faire or total market strangulation.  There is a continuum of regulation.

I'm not sure what you mean.  Take the "profit" out of healthcare altogether?  Great.  Let's start with pharma.

You make point by point pointless when you're wrong on every count.

I wonder sometimes if you are an alter.  Like some watusi or hindi who has never lived or worked in America hacked your account. 

I honestly don't see how you can think this way.
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wesfau2

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2017, 08:40:23 AM »
Alcohol and Strip Clubs...thats 2

You go straight to my zone of expertise?  Rookie move.

You make point by point pointless when you're wrong on every count.

I wonder sometimes if you are an alter.  Like some watusi or hindi who has never lived or worked in America hacked your account. 

I honestly don't see how you can think this way.

Nonresponsive in any way.  So you can't:

Quote
Name one (legal) market in the United States that is purely capitalistic.
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wesfau2

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2017, 08:40:59 AM »
I agree!  I'd follow immediately with tort reform.  Driving down the cost of medical malpractice insurance will surely help make healthcare more affordable.

I'll listen to your proposal, I don't think there should be any sacred cows in the discussion.
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Kaos

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2017, 08:42:49 AM »
I agree!  I'd follow immediately with tort reform.  Driving down the cost of medical malpractice insurance will surely help make healthcare more affordable.

You can't take the profit out of it.  At that point you're relying on pure altruism in order to develop new cures. The days of a Salk laboring in relative poverty to develop a cure are gone.

You can't regulate the ability to make a living out of it.  What happens then is government labs become the research facilities.  Everybody dies. 

The only way to regulate costs is to get the government completely out of it.  Natural selection takes care of the rest.

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Kaos

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2017, 08:55:41 AM »
You go straight to my zone of expertise?  Rookie move.

Nonresponsive in any way.  So you can't:

"Purely capitalistic"

That's your standard.  Just because the government HAS interfered doesn't mean that it should have.

I'm talking basic supply and demand.  Like every business in the country. Restaurants, hair salons whatever
 
You are most certainly being obtuse. Your arbitrary standard of "pure capitalism" only obscures the fact that 90% of the service providers in this country live and die under the basic concepts of capitalism. 

Since we are challenging, how about you show me one industry improved by a meddling government.

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wesfau2

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #150 on: March 10, 2017, 08:58:37 AM »
"Purely capitalistic"

That's your standard. 

No, that's your standard.  You are arguing for free market principles to apply to healthcare.  I'm saying that those principles don't apply and asking for an exemplary market to demonstrate free market/capitalist ideas at work.

Quote
how about you show me one industry improved by a meddling government.

I think, had they survived, the workers at the Triangle Shirt Factory would say that manufacturing labor conditions are improved by government meddling.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 09:00:22 AM by wesfau2 »
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Snaggletiger

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #151 on: March 10, 2017, 09:27:37 AM »
I agree!  I'd follow immediately with tort reform.  Driving down the cost of medical malpractice insurance will surely help make healthcare more affordable.

Nurra' please.  HUGE misconception. 
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My doctor told me I needed to stop masturbating.  I asked him why, and he said, "because I'm trying to examine you."

Kaos

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #152 on: March 10, 2017, 09:32:43 AM »
No, that's your standard.  You are arguing for free market principles to apply to healthcare.  I'm saying that those principles don't apply and asking for an exemplary market to demonstrate free market/capitalist ideas at work.

I think, had they survived, the workers at the Triangle Shirt Factory would say that manufacturing labor conditions are improved by government meddling.

Free market principles and "pure capitalism" are not the same things.  Those principles absolutely do apply -- and should.

So you pull an example from 1911, and one that was much more union involvement than government intervention. 

That's a beaut, Clark. 
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wesfau2

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #153 on: March 10, 2017, 09:57:01 AM »
Free market principles and "pure capitalism" are not the same things.  Those principles absolutely do apply -- and should.

So you pull an example from 1911, and one that was much more union involvement than government intervention. 

That's a beaut, Clark.

So you still can't:

Quote
Name one (legal) market in the United States that is purely capitalistic
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GH2001

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #154 on: March 10, 2017, 10:17:11 AM »
I'll listen to your proposal, I don't think there should be any sacred cows in the discussion.

I know its your field wes, but its a valid point. I know a few dr.'s personally and they've both been driven to the point of having to rethink their careers due to medical malpractice insurance. And its a tricky area because there are legit cases of it. But its been very abused in the last 25 years. There has to be a good middle ground somewhere to the point where costs are driven down but Doctors can still be held liable in legit cases.

What Im saying on the 501c point was that I don't have an issue with them making a profit to stay afloat. Just saying maybe it shouldn't be the main driver, which it is now in Big Pharma. Kind of how charities operate - they stay afloat but profit isn't their main goal (well, actually now for some it is but thats another argument).
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AUTailgatingRules

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #155 on: March 10, 2017, 10:17:55 AM »
Name one (legal) market in the United States that is purely capitalistic.



My business:

I represent 17 different manufacturers of disposable foodservice products.  I take what they make, mark it up for profit ( As high as the market will allow), and sell it to restaurants and distributors throughout the USA. 

While the manufacturers may be regulated by the EPA etc, I am not.  I am simply an evil profit monger

Capitalism in it's purest form
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Kaos

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #156 on: March 10, 2017, 10:27:31 AM »
So you still can't:

Because it's fucking absolutely irrelevant.

Free market.  Supply and demand.  All those things.  But keep creating false targets. 
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Kaos

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #157 on: March 10, 2017, 10:28:42 AM »
I'll listen to your proposal, I don't think there should be any sacred cows in the discussion.

And you're a vegan.  It makes so much sense now. 

 :facepalm:
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AUChizad

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #158 on: March 10, 2017, 10:35:43 AM »
Wes-----------------Chizad-----------------Kaos


In this political year I've learned that I'm between Chad and Kaos but I'm probably a little closer to Chad.
The left/right paradigm is increasingly less meaningful than the full political compass IMO. On a 2D map, more libertarian tendencies will skew you further to the left than you really are.

I made this purely based on my perception of regular posters to the political forum. I think it's accurate, but I'm sure people will disagree, especially about themselves.

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Kaos

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Re: Health Care
« Reply #159 on: March 10, 2017, 10:43:06 AM »
I know its your field wes, but its a valid point. I know a few dr.'s personally and they've both been driven to the point of having to rethink their careers due to medical malpractice insurance. And its a tricky area because there are legit cases of it. But its been very abused in the last 25 years. There has to be a good middle ground somewhere to the point where costs are driven down but Doctors can still be held liable in legit cases.

What Im saying on the 501c point was that I don't have an issue with them making a profit to stay afloat. Just saying maybe it shouldn't be the main driver, which it is now in Big Pharma. Kind of how charities operate - they stay afloat but profit isn't their main goal (well, actually now for some it is but thats another argument).

Won't work. 

When you remove the incentive of profit, you eliminate the possibility of hiring the best and brightest.  You're reduced to either government hiring people to run research labs (Jay Jacobs level fail) or you're only getting those who have a selfless desire to serve humanity in those research roles (look at the education system where teachers don't make shit and people like me who loved the job can't afford to feed their families and stay). 

This is a much, much bigger argument but when you've got a Demare Carroll (who, you ask?  Valid point) making $14.2 million a year while a Beth Berry (high school English teacher) makes $35,000 then you've got a society that's fundamentally flawed.  Think about that.  The average high school teacher cannot make in five lifetimes what a worthless NBA player makes in a single season. 

If you really want to talk about redistributing wealth, that's where to do it.  I don't want to, at all, but if you're hell bent on making that happen?  Figure out some way to balance that equation.  But even then, it's a business.  People, advertisers PAY in order for the money to be available to hand Demare that kind of money.  Is it fair to penalize him?
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