This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy

[AUChizad]

Up to 2.2 pounds...  WOW!  That's significantly greater than the personal consumption amount that I was suggesting.  You'd have a hard time convincing anyone that it was just for your own use.  In my opinion, a fine of up to $2000 and up to a year in jail is nothing for toting 2.2 pounds of pot around town. 

Yeah. 2.2 lbs is considerable. Which is why if you have 2.2 or more you're REALLY fucked.

The charge is for up to 2.2 lbs, so if you are caught with a dime or even an empty pipe, that's the penalty you face.

http://www.montgomerymarijuanachargeattorney.com/Marijuana_Penalties.html

MARIJUANA DRUG CRIME STATUTE

Code of Alabama §13A-12-213. Unlawful possession of marijuana in the first degree.

(a) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of marijuana in the first degree if, except as otherwise authorized:

(1) He possesses marijuana for other than personal use; or

(2) He possesses marijuana for his personal use only after having been previously convicted of unlawful possession of marijuana in the second degree or unlawful possession of marijuana for his personal use only.

(b) Unlawful possession of marijuana in the first degree is a Class C felony.

Code of Ala. §13A-12-214. Unlawful possession of marijuana in the second degree

(a) A person commits the crime of unlawful possession of marijuana in the second degree if, except as otherwise authorized, he possesses marijuana for his personal use only.

(b) Unlawful possession of marijuana in the second degree is a Class A misdemeanor.

So if you get busted a second time, you no longer fall in the misdemeanor category.

Also, read the whole chart. The "more than 2.2 lbs" penalty of 1-10 years and $5,000 is only if they determine it is for personal use. Probably not issued often.

If you cultivate your own, EVEN 2.2 POUNDS OR LESS, that's a MANDATORY MINIMUM SENTENCE of 3 years in jail, and a $25,000 fine. The more you're growing, the stricter the penalty, up to a MANDATORY MINIMUM SENTENCE of life in prison.

The law is nowhere near as lax as you are suggesting.

[RWS]

The law is nowhere near as lax as you are suggesting.

The actual law is fairly strict, its just a matter of the judge deciding whether to enforce the POM 1st charge on your second, third, etc POM 2nd charge. Alot of the times the judge will not enforce the statute. It really depends on the judge, defendant, etc.

I'm really not sure which side of this argument I would be on. I really think the argument of marijuanna vs. alcohol has some merit. We run across alot of dumbasses, and by far, the drunk ones are the worst. Usually the guys you pop for POM 2nd aren't combative, uncooperative, etc. A little annoying sometimes, yes. But the drunks are usually the ones that you have problems out of. Example, a guy came in last month and was drunk as hell. He ran off the road and hit a house on stilts across from the beach. He took out three 10x10 stilts with his car and almost caused the house to collapse. He then became combative with the officers, who then had to tase him repeatedly just to make him get out of his vehicle (drive stun, no probes). Even coming into the jail while handcuffed he was head butting officers, then going nuts in his cell.

I've seen alot of people come in and out of the jail. In my opinion, alcohol is much worse than marijuanna. But marijuanna isn't that great for you either. I'm not so sure that I'm ready to say it should be legalized quite yet, but it sure is a strain on the judicial system. If the government could come up with some sort of regulation that is better than the current regs on alcohol and tobacco, maybe I would be on the bandwagon. I'm just really middle of the fence on it. There is a good argument for both sides of it. I think its just been a taboo subject for so long it would be difficult to get any kind of legislation on it passed.

[CCTAU]

We've all been brainwashed for so long that mj is sooooo bad that most folks just don't do the research and the ones that still smoke it, keep it very quiet. But there are many, many folks out there that still smoke it. The majority of these are hard working very successful citizens. They enjoy relaxing with a joint every now and then. To take these folks and prosecute for possession and have that on their record is ridiculous. To put someone in jail for possession is even more ridiculous. When the jails are full of victimless offenders dealing with mj to the point that violent criminals are released due to capacity issues, we have a serious problem. If a person is found in possession of a lot of MJ, then that person should just have everything they own taken form them and they should be tagged to do community service. But to throw them in prison with violent offenders is absolutely stupid. Not to mention, with no jail time, these offenders then become a less violent target for the police. Make it so that a mandatory 5 years exist when you have a weapon while possessing more than the limit and that also will cut down on the violence. Allow folks to grow it and sell it for personal use and pay taxes on lit just as we do alcohol and cigs. The penalties for selling to a minor should be just as severe as they are today for alcohol. Regulate the industry so that the product is pure and not laced. Therefore, you cut down on the PCP laden mj. There are many things we could do that would ease the public burden in this area. We still have the programs that are anti-alcohol, just add MJ to the list also. The initial bump in usage may spike, but it will soon level off the the same usage as before. I've known many folks that have died due to the misuse of alcohol. But I know of no-one that has died from mj. I know many folks that still enjoy it today and they are still very heavy producers in the world of business.

The gateway drug argument is not really as strong as some would like us to believe. It has been drilled onto our head so much, that we tend to blow it out of proportion. A person prone to drug addiction will find some kind of drug to fulfill their void. It will not matter if they start with alcohol or mj.

And I am no libertarian, nor have I EVER done ANY illegal drug. I haven't even intentionally inhaled the 2nd hand smoke from mj. At the first signs of the smell, I left. But I will not condemn others for responsibly enjoying a product that is no more destructive or addictive than the alcohol that I enjoy. And putting mj users in jail is a condemnation that is hypocritical in today's society.

[Thrilla]

We've all been brainwashed for so long that mj is sooooo bad that most folks just don't do the research and the ones that still smoke it, keep it very quiet. But there are many, many folks out there that still smoke it. The majority of these are hard working very successful citizens. They enjoy relaxing with a joint every now and then. To take these folks and prosecute for possession and have that on their record is ridiculous. To put someone in jail for possession is even more ridiculous. When the jails are full of victimless offenders dealing with mj to the point that violent criminals are released due to capacity issues, we have a serious problem. If a person is found in possession of a lot of MJ, then that person should just have everything they own taken form them and they should be tagged to do community service. But to throw them in prison with violent offenders is absolutely stupid. Not to mention, with no jail time, these offenders then become a less violent target for the police. Make it so that a mandatory 5 years exist when you have a weapon while possessing more than the limit and that also will cut down on the violence. Allow folks to grow it and sell it for personal use and pay taxes on lit just as we do alcohol and cigs. The penalties for selling to a minor should be just as severe as they are today for alcohol. Regulate the industry so that the product is pure and not laced. Therefore, you cut down on the PCP laden mj. There are many things we could do that would ease the public burden in this area. We still have the programs that are anti-alcohol, just add MJ to the list also. The initial bump in usage may spike, but it will soon level off the the same usage as before. I've known many folks that have died due to the misuse of alcohol. But I know of no-one that has died from mj. I know many folks that still enjoy it today and they are still very heavy producers in the world of business.

The gateway drug argument is not really as strong as some would like us to believe. It has been drilled onto our head so much, that we tend to blow it out of proportion. A person prone to drug addiction will find some kind of drug to fulfill their void. It will not matter if they start with alcohol or mj.

And I am no libertarian, nor have I EVER done ANY illegal drug. I haven't even intentionally inhaled the 2nd hand smoke from mj. At the first signs of the smell, I left. But I will not condemn others for responsibly enjoying a product that is no more destructive or addictive than the alcohol that I enjoy. And putting mj users in jail is a condemnation that is hypocritical in today's society.

I am shocked by your position on this.  I can actually agree 100% with you on this one.

[AUChizad]

I am shocked by your position on this.  I can actually agree 100% with you on this one.

You said it before I could.

I will respect your opinion on other issues more now, knowing that you're not a parrot.

[War Eagle!!!]

CCTAU said exactly how I feel about the situation. I too have never done it, but I don't condemn people that do. It just doesn't matter to me. I wanted to reply with something like CCTAU but I was lazy...

[GarMan]

The law is nowhere near as lax as you are suggesting.

It's not the law; it's the enforcement of that law.  You know that.  Laws always sound tough on paper, but in practice, our legal system walks all over them. 

As an example, one of the local drunks at my neighborhood bar recieved a second DUI in 18 months and had to spend 30 days in jail.  That seems tough when compared to others in the same bar having similar convictions and only spending 5 days in jail on weekend duty.  Some can afford better lawyers (aka lie-yers) than others.  By the way, the guy who spent 30 days in jail lost his job too. 

[GarMan]

I really think the argument of marijuanna vs. alcohol has some merit.

I don't, mainly because those arguing for MJ can't do so without a disparaging comparison to something else that is already perfectly legal.  If the merits, safety, benefits or whatever you believe about MJ could stand on their own, MJ would already be legal.  That's why I find the comparison arguments to be a flawed postion. 

[AUChizad]

I don't, mainly because those arguing for MJ can't do so without a disparaging comparison to something else that is already perfectly legal.  If the merits, safety, benefits or whatever you believe about MJ could stand on their own, MJ would already be legal.  That's why I find the comparison arguments to be a flawed postion. 

This is ridiculous, sorry.

Merits, benefits, be damned. It doesn't have to cure cancer for it to NOT be outlawed. The burden is on those that feel it should be outlawed to prove why it is more dangerous than the many many many substances that remain legal.

From now on, those in possession of red M&M's will face serious jail time. It's damn near that arbitrary. Don't argue about how they're just as harmless as the green ones. This has nothing to do with the green ones! You must explain the medical benefits of those damn red ones!

The point is, there has to be some hint of consistency with the law. It makes absolutely no sense to celebrate one and outlaw the other, especially when the outlawed one is in virtually every way less harmful than the legal one. What the hell are laws for anyway? Aren't they supposed to be to protect us? How are we staying safer by people drinking instead of smoking? It's not only a valid argument, it's THE argument.

You don't want to compare the two (now) because there is no comparison. We can't discuss it because you can't be on the losing end of an argument.

[GarMan]

This is ridiculous, sorry.

Not at all.  It's just flawed logic on the pro-MJ crowd.  You know that.  It's why they lose or lack credibilty for an honest discussion.  You could probably argue that dog shit is not as bad as some of that make-believe baby food out there.  Should that justify us feeding dog shit to our babies?  It makes about as much sense. 

Merits, benefits, be damned. It doesn't have to cure cancer for it to NOT be outlawed. The burden is on those that feel it should be outlawed to prove why it is more dangerous than the many many many substances that remain legal. 

MJ is already illegal.  We're not trying to make it illegal. 

The point is, there has to be some hint of consistency with the law. It makes absolutely no sense...

Why don't we start with the tax code first?  If you want to talk about consistency with the laws and all...

You don't want to compare the two (now) because there is no comparison. We can't discuss it because you can't be on the losing end of an argument.

I'm not debating that, but is alcohol really part of the argument?  Is that really all you have?  Why bring it up?  It's just a naive silly position.  If Tommy's mommy bought him a Gameboy, your mommy should by you one too.  That's the same silly logic. 

[Tarheel]

Well, shit, at least we know that this is a popular debate.  Excellent arguments abound from both sides.  I'm not sure I've ever seen a topic go 5-6 pages in this forum.  We all need to get together and discuss it further!while passing around a gigantic joint so we can all get as high as a giraffe's asshole

I still think that we have a hippie infestation problem on The X.

[tiger88]

I don't, mainly because those arguing for MJ can't do so without a disparaging comparison to something else that is already perfectly legal.  If the merits, safety, benefits or whatever you believe about MJ could stand on their own, MJ would already be legal.  That's why I find the comparison arguments to be a flawed postion. 

This is unbelievably weak sauce.

[GarMan]

This is unbelievably weak sauce.

Actually, comparison arguments like this don't usually hold any water.  At least, they didn't in the past.  The core argument is legalization of MJ, not the safety of MJ compared to other substances.  Bringing up other substances is just a diversionary tactic used to cloud the debate.  Am I really the only one who sees that?  It used to be common sense, but I suppose our public school system (gubm'et indoctrination centers) has failed again.  The downbreeding of America continues... 

[tiger88]

Actually, comparison arguments like this don't usually hold any water.  At least, they didn't in the past.  The core argument is legalization of MJ, not the safety of MJ compared to other substances.  Bringing up other substances is just a diversionary tactic used to cloud the debate.  Am I really the only one who sees that?  It used to be common sense, but I suppose our public school system (gubm'et indoctrination centers) has failed again.  The downbreeding of America continues... 

 Alcohol was once illegal. Now, it is legal. What changed about the effects/benefits of legalization/etc. of alcohol between those two eras? I mean besides nothing.

 Anyone who has ever partaken in both is fully aware of the lesser dehabilitative effects of marijuana. Studies have shown it and this is part of the argument. Your argument that if mj should be legal it already would be is comical to say the least. I mean using that logic we could easily say that from this point forward no laws should be added or taken away because all laws are just and any laws that should be there are already there. That is the next car in your logic train. Mj isn't legal mainly because of the lumber/paper industry and bible thumping idiots who would rather jail people than let them live freely when it does not affect others.

[GarMan]

Alcohol was once illegal. Now, it is legal. What changed about the effects/benefits of legalization/etc. of alcohol between those two eras? I mean besides nothing.

Regulation...  Willingness to regulate a controlled substance...  And, so on... 

Anyone who has ever partaken in both is fully aware of the lesser dehabilitative effects of marijuana. Studies have shown it and this is part of the argument.

Alcohol is only part of the argument because the pro-MJ side tries to make it part of the argument.  Why not compare it to Advil or Tylenol (Actually, there's some work already out there...)?  The "lesser dehabilitative effects" really depends on the grade, quality, THC content, level of consumption and personal affect on the individual.  In other words, it's a serious stretch to make that claim. 

Your argument that if mj should be legal it already would be is comical to say the least. I mean using that logic we could easily say that from this point forth no laws should be added or taken away because all laws are just and any laws that should be there are already there.

WOW...  Did I ever say that?  Do you think that I even insinuated that?  (PUT THE BONG DOWN!)

Actually, what I really suggested was... If all of that so-called "evidence" and "scientific fact" was as "common knowledge" as much as others have suggested in this thread, there'd be no debate on the topic because pot would already be legal.  The "common knowledge" theory suggests that everyone already knows that it's as safe as water, and it's only those evil supernatural forces preventing it from being legal.  It must be those paper people and bible thumbers...  Yeah, that's it!   

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030039&ct=1

References sited...

Hall WD, Pacula RL (2003) Cannabis use and dependence: Public health and public policy. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. 298 p.
Degenhardt L, Lynskey M, Hall WD (2000) Cohort trends in the age of initiation of drug use in Australia. Aust N Z J Public Health 24:421–426.
Monshouwer K, Smit F, de Graaf R, van Os J, Vollebergh W (2005) First cannabis use: Does onset shift to younger ages? Findings from 1988 to 2003 from the Dutch National School Survey on Substance Use. Addiction 100:963–970.
Australian Institute of Health and Welfare [AIHW]. (2003) Alcohol and other drug treatment services in Australia 2001–02: Report on the National Minimum Data Set. Canberra (Australia): AIHW. 98 p.
Dutch National Alcohol and Drug Information System. (2004) Treatment demand of cannabis clients in outpatient addiction care in the Netherlands (1994–2001). LADIS Bulletin Available: http://www.ivv.nl/content/_files/LADIS_Bulletin_Cannabis_april_2004_eng.pdf. Accessed 19 December 2005.
Adams IB, Martin BR (1996) Cannabis: Pharmacology and toxicology in animals and humans. Addiction 91:1585–1614.
Maldonado R (2002) Study of cannabinoid dependence in animals. Pharmacol Ther 95:153–164.
Cook SA, Lowe JA, Martin BR (1998) CB1 receptor antagonist precipitates withdrawal in mice exposed to delta9-tetrahydrocannabinol. J Pharmacol Exp Ther 285:1150–1156.
Copeland J, Swift W, Rees V (2001) Clinical profile of participants in a brief intervention program for cannabis use disorder. J Subst Abuse Treat 20:45–52.
Stephens RS, Roffman RA, Simpson EE (1994) Treating adult marijuana dependence—A test of the relapse prevention model. J Consult Clin Psychol 62:92–99.
Swift W, Hall WD, Copeland J (1998) Characteristics of long-term cannabis users in Sydney, Australia. Eur Addict Res 4:190–197.
Crowley TJ, Macdonald MJ, Whitmore EA, Mikulich SK (1998) Cannabis dependence, withdrawal, and reinforcing effects among adolescents with conduct symptoms and substance use disorders. Drug Alcohol Depend 50:27–37.
Tims FM, Dennis ML, Hamilton N, Buchan BJ, Diamond G, et al. (2002) Characteristics and problems of 600 adolescent cannabis abusers in outpatient treatment. Addiction 97:46–57.
Robins LN, Reiger DA, editors (1991) Psychiatric disorders in America: The Epidemiological Catchment Area Study. New York: The Free Press. 449 p.
Anthony JC, Warner L, Kessler R (1994) Comparative epidemiology of dependence on tobacco, alcohol, controlled substances and inhalants: Basic findings from the National Comorbidity Survey. Exp Clin Psychopharmacol 2:244–268.
Hwu HG, Compton WM (1994) Comparison of major epidemiological surveys using the Diagnostic Interview Schedule. Int Rev Psychiatry 6:309–327.
Russell JM, Newman SC, Bland RC (1994) Drug abuse and dependence. Acta Psychiatr Scand 89:54–62.
Wells J, Bushnell J, Joyce PR, Oakley-Browne M, Hornblow A (1992) Problems with alcohol, drugs and gambling in Christchurch, New Zealand. In: Abbot M, Evans K, editors. Alcohol and drug dependence and disorders of impulse control Auckland (New Zealand): Alcohol Liquor Advisory Council. pp 3–13.
Hall WD, Teesson M, Lynskey M, Degenhardt L (1999) The 12-month prevalence of substance use and ICD-10 substance use disorders in Australian adults: Findings from the National Survey of Mental Health and Well-Being. Addiction 94:1541–1550.
Chen CY, O'Brien MS, Anthony JC (2005) Who becomes cannabis dependent soon after onset of use? Epidemiological evidence from the United States: 2000–2001. Drug Alcohol Depend 79:11–22.
Coffey C, Carlin JB, Lynskey M, Li N, Patton GC (2003) Adolescent precursors of cannabis dependence: Findings from the Victorian Adolescent Health Cohort Study. Br J Psychiatry 182:330–336.
Budney AJ, Moore BA (2002) Development and consequences of cannabis dependence. J Clin Pharmacol 42:S28–S33.
MacLeod J, Oakes R, Copello A, Crome I, Egger M, et al. (2004) The psychosocial consequences of use of cannabis and other illicit drugs: Systematic review of longitudinal, general population studies. Lancet 363:1579–1588.
Morral AR, McCaffrey DF, Paddock SM (2002) Reassessing the marijuana gateway effect. Addiction 97:1493–1504.
Kandel DB (1975) Stages in adolescent involvement in drug use. Science 190:912–914.
Kandel DB, Yamaguchi K (2002) Stages of drug involvement in the U. S. population. In: Kandel DB, editor. Stages and pathways of drug involvement: Examining the gateway hypothesis New York: Cambridge University Press. pp 65–89.
Kandel DB (1984) Marijuana users in young adulthood. Arch Gen Psychiatry 41:200–209.
Hall WD, Lynskey M (2005) Is cannabis a gateway drug? Testing hypotheses about the relationship between cannabis use and the use of other illicit drugs. Drug Alcohol Rev 24:39–48.
Gardner EL (1999) Cannabinoid interaction with brain reward systems. In: Nahas G, Sutin KM, Harvey D, Agurell S, editors. Marihuana and medicine Towa (New Jersey): Humana Press. pp 187–205.
Manzanares J, Corchero J, Romero J, Fernandez-Ruiz JJ, Ramos JA, et al. (1999) Pharmacological and biochemical interactions between opioids and cannabinoids. Trends Pharmacol Sci 20:287–294.
Tanda G, Pontieri FE, Di Chiara G (1997) Cannabinoid and heroin activation of mesolimbic dopamine transmission by a common mu1 opioid receptor mechanism. Science 276:2048–2050.
Agrawal A, Neale MC, Prescott CA, Kendler KS (2004) Cannabis and other illicit drugs: Comorbid use and abuse/dependence in males and females. Behav Genet 34:217–228.
Fergusson DM, Horwood LJ (2000) Does cannabis use encourage other forms of illicit drug use? Addiction 95:505–520.
Lynskey MT, Heath AC, Bucholz KK, Slutske WS (2003) Escalation of drug use in early-onset cannabis users vs co-twin controls. JAMA 289:427–433.
Agrawal A, Neale MC, Prescott CA, Kendler KS (2004) A twin study of early cannabis use and subsequent use and abuse/dependence of other illicit drugs. Psychol Med 34:1227–1237.
Tien AY, Anthony JC (1990) Epidemiological analysis of alcohol and drug use as risk factors for psychotic experiences. J Nerv Ment Dis 178:473–480.
Thomas H (1996) A community survey of adverse effects of cannabis use. Drug Alcohol Depend 42:201–207.
Degenhardt L, Hall WD (2001) The association between psychosis and problematical drug use among Australian adults: Findings from the National Survey of Mental Health and Well-Being. Psychol Med 31:659–668.
Warner R, Taylor D, Wright J, Sloat A, Springett G, et al. (1994) Substance use among the mentally ill: Prevalence, reasons for use, and effects on illness. Am J Orthopsychiatry 64:30–39.
Hambrecht M, Hafner H (1996) Substance abuse and the onset of schizophrenia. Biol Psychiatry 40:1155–1163.
Mueser KT, Bellack AS, Blanchard JJ (1992) Comorbidity of schizophrenia and substance abuse: Implications for treatment. J Consult Clin Psychol 60:845–856.
Thornicroft G (1990) Cannabis and psychosis: Is there epidemiological evidence for association? Br J Psychiatry 157:25–33.
Andreasson S, Engstrom A, Allebeck P, Rydberg U (1987) Cannabis and schizophrenia: A longitudinal study of Swedish conscripts. Lancet 2:1483–1486.
Zammit S, Allebeck P, Andreasson S, Lundberg I, Lewis G (2002) Self reported cannabis use as a risk factor for schizophrenia in Swedish conscripts of 1969: Historical cohort study. BMJ 325:1199–1201.
van Os J, Bak M, Hanssen M, Bijl RV, de Graaf R, et al. (2002) Cannabis use and psychosis: A longitudinal population-based study. Am J Epidemiol 156:319–327.
Henquet C, Krabbendam L, Spauwen J, Kaplan C, Lieb R, et al. (2005) Prospective cohort study of cannabis use, predisposition for psychosis, and psychotic symptoms in young people. BMJ 330:11.
Arseneault L, Cannon M, Poulton R, Murray R, Caspi A, et al. (2002) Cannabis use in adolescence and risk for adult psychosis: Longitudinal prospective study. BMJ 325:1212–1213.
Fergusson DM, Horwood JL, Swain-Campbell NR (2003) Cannabis dependence and psychotic symptoms in young people. Psychol Med 33:15–21.
Semple DM, McIntosh A, Lawrie SM (2005) Cannabis as a risk factor for psychosis: A systematic review. J Psychopharmacol 19:187–194.
Caspi A, Moffitt TE, Cannon M, McClay J, Murray R, et al. (2005) Moderation of the effect of adolescent-onset cannabis use on adult psychosis by a functional polymorphism in the catechol-O-methyltransferase gene: Longitudinal evidence of a gene x environment interaction. Biol Psychiatry 57:1117–1127.
Verdoux H, Ginde C, Sorbora F, Tournier M, Swendsen J (2003) Effects of cannabis and psychosis vulnerability in daily life: An experience sampling study. Psychol Med 33:3–6.
Zimmer L, Morgan JP (1997) Marijuana myths, marijuana facts: A review of the scientific evidence. New York: The Lindesmith Center. 241 p.
Johnston LD, O'Malley PM, Bachman JG (1991) Drug use among American high school seniors, college students and young adults, 1975–1990, Volume 1. Rockville (Maryland): National Institute on Drug Abuse. 199 p.

That is the next car in your logic train. Mj isn't legal mainly because of the lumber/paper industry and bible thumping idiots who would rather jail people than let them live freely when it does not affect others.

The short-sided argument again...   

The hippie infestation at TigersX continues... 

[tiger88]

If the merits, safety, benefits or whatever you believe about MJ could stand on their own, MJ would already be legal.

This is what you said. It isn't confusing, except perhaps to you. My post was in response to what you said. Not what you said you said after you said what you said. 

The next step in your logic path is off the edge of a cliff.

MJ was legal. Can you tell me the reasoning that was given for it's illegalization after being legal since the inception of this country? If you don't think that paper/lumber companies played a huge role in its illegalization then you are so completely uninformed that this debate is not worth continuing.

Also, your hippie comments are amusing and also show your complete lack of understanding of what you are arguing against. Please continue with those. It's like Hank Jr once sang, "You're the only one that you are screwing, when you put down what you don't understand". Also, if you deny that religious zealots played a huge role as well then, once again, you are completely uninformed.


I smoked pot for many years and smoked with hundreds if not thousands of people and that is where the lesser dehabiliting effects comments come from. I have smoked shit that is as good or better than you see on the cover of high times magazine and the only thing I can promise you is that the effect of the most potent mj in the world pales in comparison to a drinking binge. Not just on me but on hundreds of other people I know and have smoked with. There is no comparison. If you get too high you want to lay down and go to sleep. If you get too drunk you will lose control of your senses and judgment. Perhaps piss and vomit all over yourself. Perhaps decide to drive your car when you are barely capable of standing for more than a few moments without falling down, or maybe black out and god knows what will happen then.

This isn't just my own opinion. It is the opinion of hundreds of people that I know that actually know what they are debating about. From small town losers to multi-millionaires. So rattle on about your "knowledge" about the effects on different people and thc levels and all that stuff. Anyone who knows wtf they are talking about recognizes the idiocy of your argument.

Some people fall out unconscious if they have a half a dose of nyquil. Some nearly go into defib. if they drink half a cup of coffee. I have met more than a few people in my former line of work that say that ingesting any levels of aspartame gave them dehabilitating migraine headaches and worse.

The great thing about arguing for the legalization of pot is that logic is on your side and the other side is mostly debated by people who have absolutely no clue wtf they are talking about. I understand why you dont people using the alcohol to mj comparison to debate. It shoots all of your reasoning right in the ass.

[GarMan]

This is what you said.
It isn't confusing, except perhaps to you. My post was in response to what you said. Not what you said you said after you said what you said. 

Splitting hairs...  What I said was in response to this "common knowledge" argument.  I never said it would be if it should be, should be if it would be or any other concocted transcription. 

The next step in your logic path is off the edge of a cliff.

MJ was legal. Can you tell me the reasoning that was given for it's illegalization after being legal since the inception of this country? If you don't think that paper/lumber companies played a huge role in its illegalization then you are so completely uninformed that this debate is not worth continuing.

Actually, I don't think it matters... 

Also, your hippie comments are amusing and also show your complete lack of understanding of what you are arguing against. Please continue with those. It's like Hank Jr once sang, "You're the only one that you are screwing, when you put down what you don't understand".

Hank Jr???  The GREAT PHILOSOPHICAL THINKER of our time...    

And, Freebird should be the Nashional Anthum!

Also, if you deny that religious zealots played a huge role as well then, once again, you are completely uninformed.

I just don't think it was as significant as you like to make it. 

I smoked pot for many years and smoked with hundreds if not thousands of people and that is where...

No offense, but your logic, reasoning, rationale and discussion points are exactly why I tend to argue against it. 
 

The great thing about arguing for the legalization of pot is that logic is on your side and the other side is mostly debated by people who have absolutely no clue wtf they are talking about.

I think your point has some merit with most people who typically argue against legalization, but it doesn't make their opinion any less valid than yours. 

I understand why you dont people using the alcohol to mj comparison to debate. It shoots all of your reasoning right in the ass.

Wrong again...  It's just a silly position. 

[tiger88]

Splitting hairs...  What I said was in response to this "common knowledge" argument.  I never said it would be if it should be, should be if it would be or any other concocted transcription. 
Actually, I don't think it matters... 
Hank Jr???  The GREAT PHILOSOPHICAL THINKER of our time...    

And, Freebird should be the Nashional Anthum!
I just don't think it was as significant as you like to make it. 
No offense, but your logic, reasoning, rationale and discussion points are exactly why I tend to argue against it. 
 I think your point has some merit with most people who typically argue against legalization, but it doesn't make their opinion any less valid than yours. 
Wrong again...  It's just a silly position. 

Well, your logic and reasoning points have a lot to do with why this country is so out of whack in many ways. If you don't morally agree with someone on the issue of a victimless crime then your rationale is to arrest and prosecute that person. Wave that flag proudly my friend.


The lowest point of drug use in this country in a long time was the just say no era led by Nancy Reagan. That is how you decrease drug use if you are against it. Educate on the effects and to just say no, starting at an early age. The solution of having a "drug war" and arresting and prosecuting as many people as possible and providing government assisted rehab doesn't work. It has made us number one in at least one area though, % of our population in jail. Woo-hoo! We are falling in every other category, at least we are still #1 in something, huh ?

We are pretty much at the zero point here afa our discussion. Continuing won't do much good. FWIW,I did read a couple of the studies you provided and was not impressed.  A stronger argument could almost definitely be made for making sugar illegal. The effects of sugar on our society is devestating. There are many things that we ingest into our bodies that affect us negatively in some way(s). Of course if sugar were illegal then smoking pot wouldn't be as much fun.

[GarMan]

Well, your logic and reasoning points have a lot to do with why this country is so out of whack in many ways.  If you don't morally agree with someone on the issue of a victimless crime then your rationale is to arrest and prosecute that person. Wave that flag proudly my friend.

Oh no...  I completely disagree with that rationale, but you guys are so quick to throw those stereotypical beliefs around...  Why would I challenge you on that?  "If you don't morally agree with someone?"  Morals?  Really?  And, you're still floating that "victimless crime" argument...  DUI is a victimless crime too.  I mean, using your logic... 

The lowest point of drug use in this country in a long time was the just say no era led by Nancy Reagan. That is how you decrease drug use if you are against it. Educate on the effects and to just say no, starting at an early age. The solution of having a "drug war" and arresting and prosecuting as many people as possible and providing government assisted rehab doesn't work. It has made us number one in at least one area though, % of our population in jail. Woo-hoo! We are falling in every other category, at least we are still #1 in something, huh ?

And, we agree more on that point than you seem to realize.  I just don't believe that we have an overflowing prison population of Joe Six-packs (or Joe Six-joints) going to prison for minor personal possession or use. 

We are pretty much at the zero point here afa our discussion. Continuing won't do much good. FWIW,I did read a couple of the studies you provided and was not impressed.  A stronger argument could almost definitely be made for making sugar illegal. The effects of sugar on our society is devestating. There are many things that we ingest into our bodies that affect us negatively in some way(s). Of course if sugar were illegal then smoking pot wouldn't be as much fun.

If you read anything, you really wouldn't be bringing up sugar.  Seriously... 

[tiger88]

Oh no...  I completely disagree with that rationale, but you guys are so quick to throw those stereotypical beliefs around...  Why would I challenge you on that?  "If you don't morally agree with someone?"  Morals?  Really?  And, you're still floating that "victimless crime" argument...  DUI is a victimless crime too.  I mean, using your logic... 
And, we agree more on that point than you seem to realize.  I just don't believe that we have an overflowing prison population of Joe Six-packs (or Joe Six-joints) going to prison for minor personal possession or use. 
If you read anything, you really wouldn't be bringing up sugar.  Seriously... 

DUI is not a true victimless crime imo. When someone drives drunk they are endangering the lives of those they encounter on the road. They are risking others lives. It is no different than reckless endangerment which is a crime.

You seem to need to fallback on the old prisons are full of casual smokers, yet they have a lot of those who supply the need of the casual smoker. If pot were legalized/decriminalized, and regulated the number of people in prison for mj trafficking and such would diminish greatly if not disappear. Also, you neglect the local jail systems. A much higher percent of people are locked up for simple possession there.

The effect of white sugar on society is devestating and the effects can't be fully measured. It is refined in a very similar way to some drugs. I may post some articles on that.