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Screw it, I give up

Kaos

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #80 on: February 24, 2014, 01:18:13 AM »
You wanna go Jefferson we can go Jefferson.  We'll get to Hugo the Perverter later, but for now, Jefferson.

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History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813

Agree. Shouldn't have a priest/minister/rabbi/joboo/whatever running both the church and the country. This backs up my position clearly.

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In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814


Agree again.  Shouldn't have a priest/minister/rabbi/joboo/whatever running both the church and the country. This backs up my position clearly.

THIS is what he meant by separating church and state. Never intended to be applied in the way it is applied today.  Head of church shouldn't also be the leader of the government.  Separate away.  I'm all for that. 

Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom written by Jefferson:
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Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinion in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.

Doesn't that say exactly what I said?  You can't be forced to go to church, to tithe, or be punished. Think what you want. Do what you want.  Does it say anything about removing Christmas trees from the public square? 

Why no. No it does not.  I won't burden you with his quotes in the opening paragraph about Almighty God because as any student of history knows, Jefferson had many questions about the veracity of the Bible. As any man with above average intelligence would he saw inconsistencies and human hypocrisy. He doubted -- as do we all. But that didn't stop him from invoking God. Didn't prevent Christian imagery from dominating Washington, didn't keep prayer from opening meetings and sessions.  Because he was intelligent. He believed what he wanted and thought we all had the right to do the same.

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But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

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Kaos

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #81 on: February 24, 2014, 01:28:18 AM »
Maybe in your world and with your interpretations, but since the passage of the 14th Amendment in 1868 and subsequent Supreme Court decisions in the 1920's, the Bill of Rights applies to states.


Hugo Black. Interpretation.  I don't agree with it and perhaps one day it can be reversed.


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Article VI prevents the government from requiring religious tests before a person can take office.  If the Constitution's only prohibition against religious involvement by the government was to ban the creation of a U.S. church, then why does this article exist?  If the government can, in fact, do whatever it wants in relation to religion other than creating a U.S. church, then how do you explain away the existence of Article VI's last sentence?


It is intended as I've said ALL ALONG.  It's not inconsistent.  These guys did not want a repeat of the Church of England.  You can't have the religious leader also being the head of the government.  And I agree with that.  If you require a religious test, the church could arrange it so that the only person who could pass would be their hand-picked candidate. 

Pretty simple concept and thanks for doing my work for me.  Nothing like watching you fall right into proving my point.

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The treaty was ratified, unanimously, by many of the same people who drafted the Constitution.  It was also chronologically a lot closer in time to the creation of the Constitution, and thus much more likely to have an accurate reflection of what was intended when the Constitution was created.

Don't care. Not in the Constitution and I don't live in Tripoli. 

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Then surely you've acknowledged that the Constitution does not specifically prohibit the U.S. from only creating a government church?  Rather, the plain wording of the first amendment prohibits the government from creating any law ("no law") in reference or regard to ("respecting") an establishment of religion.


Word parsing. Who knows what "respecting" meant in 1780 something?  The US government can't create a law that relates to establishing a national religion.  Bam!  It's pretty clear.  ESTABLISHING RELIGION means CREATING (or ENDORSING) a government-run church. You know, like he said in Virginia.  One that can tax you, coerce you into attending, punish you for not tithing or whatever.
Thanks again for proving my point.  Twice in one post.  Bizzam! You're hired.

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If you're going to use outside influences to frame your argument, at least have enough historical background to actually understand the genesis.  I didn't reference the Hugo Black opinion;  I referenced Reynolds v. U.S., an 1878 Supreme Court case.   This opinion stated that Jefferson's comments concerning the separation of church and state "may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [first] amendment."  You act as if judges have only been cramming separation of church and state down our throats for the past "40 years" when, in fact, a Supreme Court that was much closer chronologically to the creation of the Constitution stated the same.

Well I was talking about Hugo because that's when shit started to roll downhill. 

The 1878 case took the Danbury stuff (without the rest of the historical context) and gave it weight. It was Hugo who jumped on the cart and started to ride.  It's with him that I consider the shark jumped in terms of the interpretation of the Amendment. 
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GH2001

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #82 on: February 24, 2014, 08:18:13 AM »
Look at history and forget all the BS that was fed into your brain by liberal professors and left-leaning "legal scholars."

Forget case law -- which is merely people interpreting something that could mean something different to a different group of people -- and look just at the history of this country's beginnings.

Why did the Pilgrims come?  Was it because they couldn't have Mosques in England? Because they were pissed at the Royal Lord Rory Moreth for displaying the Ten Commandments in Parliament?  No. 

What where they escaping? Pilgrims were separatists who wanted to separate from the Church of England and follow the teachings of John Calvin.  Puritans followed the Pilgrims. Their goal was to "purify" the church and shed it of Catholic trappings.  They were pissed, actually, because they didn't like the way non-Puritans worshiped in England.

So there's the foundation in the 1600s.  Second and third generation later, we're writing a breakup letter with England, followed by our New Country resolutions. 

When they spoke of not allowing the government to establish a religion, what was their frame of reference? Fleeing the freaking Church of England and breaking away from the other "state" religion, Catholicism. 

So you tell me now, it was their intent to ban all public displays of Christianity?  I laugh uproariously at your lack of historical reference.

On a side note - Calvinism is one of those things that has made Christianity look bad IMHO. And totally defies Biblical doctrine. It's a philosophy of the naive.
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WDE

WiregrassTiger

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2014, 09:57:32 AM »
On a side note - Calvinism is one of those things that has made Christianity look bad IMHO. And totally defies Biblical doctrine. It's a philosophy of the naive.
Also, Jimmy Swaggert getting caught with that hooker didn't help us much either.
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Kaos

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2014, 11:19:18 AM »
On a side note - Calvinism is one of those things that has made Christianity look bad IMHO. And totally defies Biblical doctrine. It's a philosophy of the naive.

Don't disagree.  As a Methodist I reject Calvinist theories on predestination, grace and atonement.

That's a different subject for a different debate.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2014, 02:49:54 PM »
Just because there are Jefferson quotes that reference opposition to religious leaders running the country does not mean that this was his only concern relating to religion and government.  There are a multitude of quotes that I can reference if you'd like, but it should be relatively clear from a logical standpoint that the existence of Jefferson's statements about religious leaders does not prove the non-existence of Jefferson's statements on other aspects of government involvement with religion.

In regard to Justice Black being vilified as the "shark jumper," you're ignoring your history again.  The first case of which I am aware that incorporated any portion of the Bill of Rights on a state level was in 1897.  In 1927, another pre-Black opinion specifically incorporated the first amendment.  In 1947, an opinion involving Justice Black specifically incorporated the religious portion of the first amendment on the state level.  Although there were four dissenters in that opinion, the court actually unanimously agreed that the religious portion of the first amendment should be incorporated on the state level.  The disagreement was regarding whether state governments could reimburse religious schools from tax payer dollars.  As much as you vilify Justice Black, you should be made aware that he actually upheld the law due to the reimbursements being given to all schools regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof.



Who knows what "respecting" meant in 1780 something?

So, let's get this straight.  You want to primarily focus on the plain wording of the Constitution, but then you turn around and say that you don't know what a word meant in the 1700's?  How are you supposed to tell anyone what the Constitution means when you essentially just admitted to not knowing the definition of a word used in the Constitution?  The moving argument strikes again.



The US government can't create a law that relates to establishing a national religion.  Bam!  It's pretty clear.  ESTABLISHING RELIGION means CREATING (or ENDORSING) a government-run church.

The Constitution does not use the verb "establishing," nor does it refer to the government establishing anything.  Rather, it says that no law may be passed respecting an establishment of religion.  There is no reference to who established it, or that who established it is even important.  Rather, it merely states that no law shall be made respecting an establishment of religion.

In fact, if a law is passed in reference or in regard to an establishment of religion, then this suggests that the establishment already existed in order for the law to reference or be in regard to it.  If the amendment was intended to only prevent the government from establishing a U.S. church, then two things would be mentioned.

First, the amendment would mention the fact that the government is prohibited from establishing a U.S. church; there would not be the grammatical implication that the religious institution is already in existence, nor would there be use of the word "respecting" instead of "establishing," "creating," "forming," or something similar to denote that the government is the creator of the establishment.

Second, the amendment would specifically reference that the religious establishment is government controlled/owned/operated, as opposed to the ambiguous wording of "an establishment of religion."

This can be seen by an initial draft of the amendment, which stated, "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief, nor shall any national religion be established . . ."  This draft was rejected.  Had the establishment of a U.S. church/national religion been the only thing prohibited, then this wording would have survived, as it much more clearly identifies such a specific prohibition.



But the ultimate question here is, "Why?"  Let's suppose that the Constitution was only intended to prevent the government from establishing an official religion or a U.S. church.  In effect, this would suggest that the government does not have any one specific religion that it would tout, proclaim, or display.  So why would the government want or need to have the ability to specifically display the Ten Commandments, a religious set of rules pertaining to only Judeo-Christian religions?  Sure, there's a Constitutional right to freely practice whatever religion you want, but that right prevents the government from infringing upon individual freedoms; it does not suggest that the government has the same freedom.  And, as mentioned, the government would have no need for that freedom if it is prohibited from having an official or government established religion of its own.
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Kaos

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2014, 02:59:02 PM »
You are a historical revisionist of the worst kind.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #87 on: February 24, 2014, 03:14:20 PM »
You are a historical revisionist of the worst kind.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

Post duly dismissed.
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WiregrassTiger

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #88 on: February 24, 2014, 03:28:52 PM »
Synopsis of this thread: Kaos is in the lead. VV is orating like Charlie Brown's teacher. AUChizad has taken his ball and gone home. Wes is actively looking for law books, since they haven't been cracked open in years. CCTAU is provoking an altercation like a drunk friend in a bar fight. Leonard's loser? The heathens, by a pretty fur piece.
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CCTAU

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #89 on: February 24, 2014, 03:36:57 PM »
Synopsis of this thread: Kaos is in the lead. VV is orating like Charlie Brown's teacher. AUChizad has taken his ball and gone home. Wes is actively looking for law books, since they haven't been cracked open in years. CCTAU is provoking an altercation like a drunk friend in a bar fight. Leonard's loser? The heathens, by a pretty fur piece.

I ain't as good as I once was....
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Vandy Vol

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #90 on: February 24, 2014, 04:40:46 PM »
Synopsis of this thread: Kaos is in the lead. VV is orating like Charlie Brown's teacher. AUChizad has taken his ball and gone home. Wes is actively looking for law books, since they haven't been cracked open in years. CCTAU is provoking an altercation like a drunk friend in a bar fight. Leonard's loser? The heathens, by a pretty fur piece.

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Kaos

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #91 on: February 24, 2014, 04:55:42 PM »
Just because there are Jefferson quotes that reference opposition to religious leaders running the country does not mean that this was his only concern relating to religion and government.  There are a multitude of quotes that I can reference if you'd like, but it should be relatively clear from a logical standpoint that the existence of Jefferson's statements about religious leaders does not prove the non-existence of Jefferson's statements on other aspects of government involvement with religion.


Bleeble, booble, goop, ork.  You find one, I find one that tacks differently, including in particular a state law he himself wrote and wrote exclusively that supports what I've said from the beginning.  Not exactly the "concrete"  position you make it out to be.  When someone says two things, each of which have different and potentially conflicting meanings you can pick and choose those which only support your argument (as you do) or you can look at the entire body (as I do) and draw conclusions from that. 

It's typical lawyer-speak to ignore anything that might be contradictory.

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In regard to Justice Black being vilified as the "shark jumper," you're ignoring your history again.  The first case of which I am aware that incorporated any portion of the Bill of Rights on a state level was in 1897.  In 1927, another pre-Black opinion specifically incorporated the first amendment.  In 1947, an opinion involving Justice Black specifically incorporated the religious portion of the first amendment on the state level.  Although there were four dissenters in that opinion, the court actually unanimously agreed that the religious portion of the first amendment should be incorporated on the state level.  The disagreement was regarding whether state governments could reimburse religious schools from tax payer dollars.  As much as you vilify Justice Black, you should be made aware that he actually upheld the law due to the reimbursements being given to all schools regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof.


Here we are back in case law again. This discussion isn't about case law or how it should be interpreted. What a panel of judges each with their own personal and political agendas determines nearly a hundred years after the fact doesn't sway me.  The Supreme Court is not infallible and its politically based rulings can be overturned. Otherwise we'd still have slavery and women wouldn't be able to vote. 


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So, let's get this straight.  You want to primarily focus on the plain wording of the Constitution, but then you turn around and say that you don't know what a word meant in the 1700's?  How are you supposed to tell anyone what the Constitution means when you essentially just admitted to not knowing the definition of a word used in the Constitution?  The moving argument strikes again.


Facetious.  Look up the word.


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The Constitution does not use the verb "establishing," nor does it refer to the government establishing anything.  Rather, it says that no law may be passed respecting an establishment of religion.  There is no reference to who established it, or that who established it is even important.  Rather, it merely states that no law shall be made respecting an establishment of religion.


The establishment of is the act of establishing.  Your English teacher would be disappointed.

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In fact, if a law is passed in reference or in regard to an establishment of religion, then this suggests that the establishment already existed in order for the law to reference or be in regard to it.  If the amendment was intended to only prevent the government from establishing a U.S. church, then two things would be mentioned.

First, the amendment would mention the fact that the government is prohibited from establishing a U.S. church; there would not be the grammatical implication that the religious institution is already in existence, nor would there be use of the word "respecting" instead of "establishing," "creating," "forming," or something similar to denote that the government is the creator of the establishment.

Second, the amendment would specifically reference that the religious establishment is government controlled/owned/operated, as opposed to the ambiguous wording of "an establishment of religion."

This can be seen by an initial draft of the amendment, which stated, "The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief, nor shall any national religion be established . . ."  This draft was rejected.  Had the establishment of a U.S. church/national religion been the only thing prohibited, then this wording would have survived, as it much more clearly identifies such a specific prohibition.

Bleeble, booble, gooble, derp.

The intent of the amendment was to prevent the state from establishing an ruling church body and from passing any laws that would assist in the creation of a ruling church with a priest/pope/jafar as the head of government/religion.  To suggest anything else is to ignore every aspect of the founding of this nation.


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But the ultimate question here is, "Why?"  Let's suppose that the Constitution was only intended to prevent the government from establishing an official religion or a U.S. church.  In effect, this would suggest that the government does not have any one specific religion that it would tout, proclaim, or display.  So why would the government want or need to have the ability to specifically display the Ten Commandments, a religious set of rules pertaining to only Judeo-Christian religions?  Sure, there's a Constitutional right to freely practice whatever religion you want, but that right prevents the government from infringing upon individual freedoms; it does not suggest that the government has the same freedom.  And, as mentioned, the government would have no need for that freedom if it is prohibited from having an official or government established religion of its own.

Booble, snargle, lawyer beeble.

Ask the statue of Moses on the Supreme Court building itself.  Maybe he knows.  Or maybe you think that's the Duck Dynasty guy.   
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #92 on: February 24, 2014, 05:43:47 PM »
Bleeble, booble, goop, ork.  You find one, I find one that tacks differently, including in particular a state law he himself wrote and wrote exclusively that supports what I've said from the beginning.  Not exactly the "concrete"  position you make it out to be.  When someone says two things, each of which have different and potentially conflicting meanings you can pick and choose those which only support your argument (as you do) or you can look at the entire body (as I do) and draw conclusions from that. 

It's typical lawyer-speak to ignore anything that might be contradictory.

Jefferson is also quoted as saying that "religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god" and that government legislation should "reach actions only, and not opinions" on religion.  He also said that "Christianity neither is, nor ever was part of the common law."  Jefferson also refused to call for national days of prayer and fasting, which again is a stance that would suggest that the government is prohibited from more than just creating a government religion or U.S. church, but rather should not make any legislation or official acknowledgment of particular religions and religious practices.

He also references religious leaders speaking on political matters as a "breach of contract" because that is not the service for which they are salaried; arguably this quote could be reversed to state that a government's display of religious texts is a "breach of contract" because that is not the service for which government leaders are salaried (government legislation should not "reach" opinions on religion).

In his Notes on the State of Virginia, he states, "Religion is well supported; of various kinds, indeed, but all good enough . . . without suffering the state to be troubled with it."  This is a reference that religion needs no support of any kind from government, not just the establishment of a government church.  He continues by stating that state governments such as Pennsylvania and New York had "silence[d] religious disputes" by "tak[ing] no notice of them."  Again, a much broader reference that the government should have no hand in endorsing or officially acknowledging religions, not just that they shouldn't create a government church or establish a government religion.
 


Here we are back in case law again. This discussion isn't about case law or how it should be interpreted.

You're the one who brought up the historically incorrect "facts" that courts have only within the past 40 years relied upon the concept of separation of church and state, and that Justice Black was the start of the incorporation of the Bill of Rights on the state level.  My reference to case law was to correct your inaccurate assertions.




Facetious.  Look up the word.

Your admission that the statement was facetious further confirms that you ignore arguments to which you can't or don't want to respond.  Don't want to address the fact that "respecting" is not synonymous with "establishing?"  No problem!  Just say bleeble barble gobble cock a few times and make a facetious statement about no one knowing what the word meant in the 1700's; debate won!




The establishment of is the act of establishing.  Your English teacher would be disappointed.

If the amendment was meant to ban the establishment of a government religion, then it would more plainly state, "no law establishing a religion."  Or, as the initial draft worded it, a prohibition on a "government established religion."

Rather, the wording that was ratified states that no law shall be passed "respecting an establishment of religion."  The Methodist Church is an establishment (organization or institution) of religion.  No laws may be passed in reference or in regard to an establishment of religion, because it is not the government's place to espouse or favor one establishment over another ("religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god").

Your argument that "establishment" refers to the act of establishing, and not the noun synonymous with organization or institution, would hold more weight if the establishment was specifically identified as the government's establishment, as it was in the initial draft.  Otherwise, you've created a situation in which the government can favor or support a particular religious organization through legislation, so long as there was technically no religious establishment made by the government.




The intent of the amendment was to prevent the state from establishing an ruling church body and from passing any laws that would assist in the creation of a ruling church with a priest/pope/jafar as the head of government/religion.  To suggest anything else is to ignore every aspect of the founding of this nation.

You do realize that you're just reasserting your conclusion without any further explanation or evidence, right?  We already get what you think the intent is...try addressing the arguments made.  Namely, the fact that the initial draft specifically prohibiting the creation of a national religion was rejected, and instead was replaced with a more broadly worded phrase that does not specifically refer to a government religion or the government establishing a religion.



Ask the statue of Moses on the Supreme Court building itself.  Maybe he knows.  Or maybe you think that's the Duck Dynasty guy.

Translation:  "I don't know, therefore insert irrelevant nonsense in a snide manner."
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 05:47:49 PM by Vandy Vol »
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Kaos

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #93 on: February 24, 2014, 07:08:57 PM »

Translation:  "I don't know, therefore insert irrelevant nonsense in a snide manner."

You should really tap out or wave a white flag of something. You're getting mauled here and it's not pretty.

You know Jefferson isn't the alpha and omega here, right? One man among many.

Other than some Bill Clinton-esque twisting of the words "respecting" and "establishment" (which, by the way you've taken directly from subsequent case law, aka fallible opinion, rather than putting those interpretations away and looking for yourself and without prior predjudice at the amendment in the context of history) you've done nothing but toss in later tacked on amendments and external opinions which should never be a considered part of the discussion.

You keep talking about intent but only in the light of later rulings -- which is exactly what I'm arguing. Those rulings are in error.

So until you can square your intent claims with the carving of Moses (or as you probably call him "the Jewish magician) holding *gasp* the Ten Commandments glaring down from the Supreme Court's own edifice your arguments -- while blusteringly verbose -- fail.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #94 on: February 24, 2014, 07:38:17 PM »
You know Jefferson isn't the alpha and omega here, right? One man among many.

Which is why I previously quoted Madison, Pinckney, Mason, and Franklin, in addition to pointing out an article of a treaty that was unanimously accepted by the Senate, which included a variety of founders.  You're the one who started the focus on Jefferson ("You wanna go Jefferson we can go Jefferson").  Try again.



Other than some Bill Clinton-esque twisting of the words "respecting" and "establishment" (which, by the way you've taken directly from subsequent case law, aka fallible opinion, rather than putting those interpretations away and looking for yourself and without prior predjudice at the amendment in the context of history) you've done nothing but toss in later tacked on amendments and external opinions which should never be a considered part of the discussion.

The definitions came from English dictionaries, not case law.  Try again.



You keep talking about intent but only in the light of later rulings -- which is exactly what I'm arguing. Those rulings are in error.

And in light of quotes from founders before, during, and after the creation of the first amendment.  As well as in light of a comparison of rejected wording to the wording that was included in the first amendment.  Try again.
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GH2001

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #95 on: February 24, 2014, 08:20:01 PM »
You two

 :facepalm:

How's about an agree to disagree like the rest of us did....last week.
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WDE

Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #96 on: February 24, 2014, 09:54:43 PM »
You two

 :facepalm:

How's about an agree to disagree like the rest of us did....last week.

When judging the aptitude of one's ability to agree or disagree last week, I would say that advancements had not yet been made at the time to formally agree to an agreement of disagreement in the light of the historical context that the following week had just commenced and had yet to be determined as concluded; though, in sundry times, I do believe that it is possible to divulge into quite the dialogue of agreeing and disagreeing which ironically can end in a formal yet lighthearted decision to agree to disagree in determining whether one has or can in certain circumstances actually agree to disagree. 
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The Guy That Knows Nothing of Hyperbole

Vandy Vol

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #97 on: February 24, 2014, 09:58:05 PM »
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"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." - Dean Martin

CCTAU

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #98 on: February 24, 2014, 10:02:11 PM »
So are the Ten Commandments supposedly too Christian to hang in government buildings?

Or, are they too Judaic to hang in government buildings?


I guess it depends on what IS is!
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Kaos

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Re: Screw it, I give up
« Reply #99 on: February 24, 2014, 11:05:26 PM »
You two

 :facepalm:

How's about an agree to disagree like the rest of us did....last week.

He tapped out at least a week ago.  Just kicking the corpse now.
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If you want free cheese, look in a mousetrap.