Moon scorches earth...

[Godfather]

So serious question....what do you think is the issue? Systemic? Just player development (ie Kiehl)?

We know there is talent. We know our kickers are on lock down. Our OL is average but doing ok considering. Are Grimes and Boulware the only 2 coaches meeting expectations then? Is Trooper coaching our WRs up to par? Is Chizik too hands on witht he coordinators now? I know this may be fruitless because we have no bearing on the product on the field but it's fair to ask what the hell is going on. I think we all agree this is unacceptable.

I blame the creed and fans like you.*


*joking

[JR4AU]

So serious question....what do you think is the issue? Systemic? Just player development (ie Kiehl)?

We know there is talent. We know our kickers are on lock down. Our OL is average but doing ok considering. Are Grimes and Boulware the only 2 coaches meeting expectations then? Is Trooper coaching our WRs up to par? Is Chizik too hands on witht he coordinators now? I know this may be fruitless because we have no bearing on the product on the field but it's fair to ask what the hell is going on. I think we all agree this is unacceptable.

I want to go on record as saying I'm not calling for a coaching change.  I asked why give him one more year in this or another thread, but was questioning that thinking...if you think it's probably time for a change, then why wait?   I'm not calling for it.  That said, you said it, the product, based on what recruiting is supposed to have been, is completely unacceptable. 

Coaching them up?  I guarantee you they're (BVG) coaching shedding blocks daily in practice.  Holland can't get off a block to save his fucking mother's life.  We get gashed on simple power and counter plays between the tackles because Holland is all but invisible.  The game is up on replay on ESPN3.com, all you have to do it watch MSU's first two series to see Jake getting his ass handed to him by OL that are doing little more than just getting in his way.  He gets totally decleated on one power play in the first series.  That's a base run play where he knows, or should know, that the front side OT is coming to block him, and he gets fucking knocked on his ass like it was a total surprise.

The play that WE posted the pic of?  We motioned to bunch trips right, and the wide open WR was the late release.  Fraziers' outlet.  State never even accounted for him. He never even looked at it.  If he'd simply half rolled away from pressure, he'd have had an easy completion assuming he could throw it in the same zip code.

Still watching the replay, looking at different things, but have yet to see Chad Slade be the liability that Prowler says he is.   

[Snaggletiger]

No hissy fit.  Just calling you out for being the little bitch you are today. 

If you had the capacity to read English motherfucker you'd see that I'm one of the few who hasn't called for anybody's head on the coaching staff, hasn't asked for some kind of epochal sea change and hasn't criticized anything other than Frazier's performances, Holland's performances and some occasional effort issues. 

Other than stating the obvious -- it was awful and something needs to change -- ol Kaos has been pretty calm about the whole thing. Yeah I've tossed a few sarcastic shots because what else is there to do, listen to your bitching? 

Guess paying attention to anything other than your own wounded feelings is too much to ask.  So just eat a dick instead.

I've stayed out of the fray so far. Two words in this post say it all to me.  Frayzher and Hollandaise.  At the heart of it all.  Forget all the drama and dissention and discipline problems and losing the team and every other angle.  If we had a super duper keen AVERAGE QB, even on the level of Barrett Trotter, we may be 2-0 or 1-1 at the very least.  Kaleel can't throw it in the ocean while standing at the water's edge.  Period.  The offense CANNOT function in any way, shape or form while he is playing in full tard mode.  Simple.  Loeffler, Chizik and the entire team are handcuffed as long as this continues. We are a decent running team that could be a very good running team if there was any threat whatsoever of a pass being completed.  There is no threat and we will continue to suffer until there is.

Think about the first half Saturday.  What was happening while Kyle was riding the short bus around Starkvegas?  The defense manned up and played inspired ball.  I was thinking the light was starting to come on.  And yes, after MacProne took one to the house, they did let MSU go down the field.  But....if you're playing defense and you see that series after series after series...your QB is sitting in the corner drooling on himself...just how inspired are you?  If you've been busting your ass and your QB continually hands the ball over to the enemy...and you know your offense has zero chance of scoring...

I agree some personnel need to be shifted around on D.  Get Holland out of there and let Frost and/or McKinzey get their athletic asses on the field.  Wrong calls or not, we need guys in that position to attack the ball carrier.  Wreak some havoc.  Even my untrained eye saw Holland frickin' the monkey all day.  They took Smith out and started McNeal so so they see some things and are trying to get the right guys in the mix.  Also gave T-Bell his first start.  I don't think this D is very good.  I think they are far better than they've shown.  But, if our offense (Fraisierrr) does ANYTHING in either game..just completes a FEW passes, I think the D proves they're better than what they've done so far. 

As a result of Frasier's inability to do the simplest of things in the passing game, they basically reduced the offense to about 2-3 simple plays by the second half.  I was actually hoping to see Moseley and I MEANT it.  I honestly think he is still too hurt to play.  No way they don't put him in otherwise. 

Bottom line for me...just get an average stiff who can make a few throws and we're sitting here talking strategy for next week.

[War Eagle!!!]

I want to go on record as saying I'm not calling for a coaching change.  I asked why give him one more year in this or another thread, but was questioning that thinking...if you think it's probably time for a change, then why wait?   I'm not calling for it.  That said, you said it, the product, based on what recruiting is supposed to have been, is completely unacceptable. 

Coaching them up?  I guarantee you they're (BVG) coaching shedding blocks daily in practice.  Holland can't get off a block to save his fucking mother's life.  We get gashed on simple power and counter plays between the tackles because Holland is all but invisible.  The game is up on replay on ESPN3.com, all you have to do it watch MSU's first two series to see Jake getting his ass handed to him by OL that are doing little more than just getting in his way.  He gets totally decleated on one power play in the first series.  That's a base run play where he knows, or should know, that the front side OT is coming to block him, and he gets fucking knocked on his ass like it was a total surprise.

The play that WE posted the pic of?  We motioned to bunch trips right, and the wide open WR was the late release.  Fraziers' outlet.  State never even accounted for him. He never even looked at it.  If he'd simply half rolled away from pressure, he'd have had an easy completion assuming he could throw it in the same zip code.

Still watching the replay, looking at different things, but have yet to see Chad Slade be the liability that Prowler says he is.

I don't think the OL is that bad honestly. You are going to get some pressure. Frazier just holds the ball too long.

And honestly, besides Holland, I thought the defense played a little better. Especially in the first half. But Holland is just horrible. HORRIBLE.

So we have a really bad QB and a really bad Mike. That is a bad combination. I am not sure how you correct that if those players are the best you got.

I also think that Auburn is just not mentally or physically tough enough right now. That is on Chizik. You can instill that in players from year 1...much less year 4. There is no excuse for being mentally or physically weak...

[Kaos]

So serious question....what do you think is the issue? Systemic? Just player development (ie Kiehl)?

We know there is talent. We know our kickers are on lock down. Our OL is average but doing ok considering. Are Grimes and Boulware the only 2 coaches meeting expectations then? Is Trooper coaching our WRs up to par? Is Chizik too hands on witht he coordinators now? I know this may be fruitless because we have no bearing on the product on the field but it's fair to ask what the hell is going on. I think we all agree this is unacceptable.

I wish I knew, but whatever it is I don't see an immediate fix. 

Frazier is definitely not the answer at quarterback.  I thought that last year but kept hoping I was wrong.  He makes Kodi Burns look like Aaron Rodgers.  Moseley is worse I'm afraid.  I hate Trotter left as bad as he was.  And you KNOW Neil Caudle is kicking his parents in the face for having him three years too early. 

I'm not sure the receivers are that bad or even not being coached well.  In that one picture you've got Blake drawing double coverage across the middle, you've got Lutz in his pattern and in the right position and you've got Bray (I think) exactly where he's supposed to be.  Any other quarterback in the SEC could make that throw. 

YOU could make that throw. 

If they are where they are supposed to be -- and granted I haven't broken down any game film -- then the problem reverts back to QB.  Cam had no trouble finding open receivers.  Neither did Iron Legs Todd.  Boy he looks good today, doesn't he? 

I think it's just a case of having zero production at quarterback.  We don't have anybody AT ALL who can perform at this level.  Not sure why that is.  Maybe Cam leaving a year early and then not closing Russell Wilson really did wreck the entire plan. Maybe Malzahn just quit teaching or doesn't know how to teach the game (Cam's mechanics were suspect, but he was just freak enough to overcome).  But I do know this. If you have a QB who can't get the ball to open receivers, you're not going to get the kind of talent at receiver that can get open down the road.

Defensively I really think Chizik likes the bend but don't break concept.  I don't.  He's been successful and guided some tremendous defenses as DC but if you look at his HC gigs (not to go all 5-19) the defenses have been awful.  2005 ISU gives up 230 points.  2006 they give up 369.  Under Chizik 381 and 430.  Rhoads comes in and it goes back to 284.  To be fair the last two ISU teams gave up 346 and 382.  Only two other ISU teams in history gave up more than 430 in a year.  Third worst defense in the history of a horrible program.  Three of the worst defenses in Auburn history. You have to wonder why. 

I don't know the answer.  If we burn Chizik now who is really going to want to come to the program?  We might HAVE to take a chance on somebody like Petrino who needs us as much as we need him. 

Would you want to take over the program?

Bowden:  Wins a record 20-straight games.  Fired/quit during his first losing season.

Tuberville: Beats UA six straight times.  Undefeated in 2004 (best team in the country). Four first round draft picks.  Wins 11 games in 2006.  Has first losing season in ten years and is fired/quits. 

Chizik: Wins a NC. Recruits like a motherfucker.  Coaches a Heisman winner.  May have a losing season  ???

What does that say?

Is it the Bryant curse?  All three won the national coach of the year award.  All three fielded an undefeated team. 

Short answer?  I don't know.  I'm disappointed in the way things are and based on what I saw Saturday not hopeful that it can improve much.  Too many things were awry to fix them all.  Just don't see any easy answers.

[War Eagle!!!]

I've stayed out of the fray so far. Two words in this post say it all to me.  Frayzher and Hollandaise.  At the heart of it all.  Forget all the drama and dissention and discipline problems and losing the team and every other angle.  If we had a super duper keen AVERAGE QB, even on the level of Barrett Trotter, we may be 2-0 or 1-1 at the very least.  Kaleel can't throw it in the ocean while standing at the water's edge.  Period.  The offense CANNOT function in any way, shape or form while he is playing in full tard mode.  Simple.  Loeffler, Chizik and the entire team are handcuffed as long as this continues. We are a decent running team that could be a very good running team if there was any threat whatsoever of a pass being completed.  There is no threat and we will continue to suffer until there is.

Think about the first half Saturday.  What was happening while Kyle was riding the short bus around Starkvegas?  The defense manned up and played inspired ball.  I was thinking the light was starting to come on.  And yes, after MacProne took one to the house, they did let MSU go down the field.  But....if you're playing defense and you see that series after series after series...your QB is sitting in the corner drooling on himself...just how inspired are you?  If you've been busting your ass and your QB continually hands the ball over to the enemy...and you know your offense has zero chance of scoring...

I agree some personnel need to be shifted around on D.  Get Holland out of there and let Frost and/or McKinzey get their athletic asses on the field.  Wrong calls or not, we need guys in that position to attack the ball carrier.  Wreak some havoc.  Even my untrained eye saw Holland frickin' the monkey all day.  They took Smith out and started McNeal so so they see some things and are trying to get the right guys in the mix.  Also gave T-Bell his first start.  I don't think this D is very good.  I think they are far better than they've shown.  But, if our offense (Fraisierrr) does ANYTHING in either game..just completes a FEW passes, I think the D proves they're better than what they've done so far. 

As a result of Frasier's inability to do the simplest of things in the passing game, they basically reduced the offense to about 2-3 simple plays by the second half.  I was actually hoping to see Moseley and I MEANT it.  I honestly think he is still too hurt to play.  No way they don't put him in otherwise. 

Bottom line for me...just get an average stiff who can make a few throws and we're sitting here talking strategy for next week.

haha...it's like we are the same person except I just don't care...

[GH2001]

I don't think the OL is that bad honestly. You are going to get some pressure. Frazier just holds the ball too long.

And honestly, besides Holland, I thought the defense played a little better. Especially in the first half. But Holland is just horrible. HORRIBLE.

THIS^^^!! Both points.

I think Frazier makes the OL look worse than they are. They can only protect him for so long.

And Holland? I don't know how someone sitting on the sideline (a blue chip at that) can be any WORSE! You could stand there and do nothing and it wouldn't be worse. Better yet, we could remove Holland from the game and field 10 men on D and I dont think it would get much worse from a Mike perspective.

[GH2001]

I wish I knew, but whatever it is I don't see an immediate fix. 

Frazier is definitely not the answer at quarterback.  I thought that last year but kept hoping I was wrong.  He makes Kodi Burns look like Aaron Rodgers.  Moseley is worse I'm afraid.  I hate Trotter left as bad as he was.  And you KNOW Neil Caudle is kicking his parents in the face for having him three years too early. 

I'm not sure the receivers are that bad or even not being coached well.  In that one picture you've got Blake drawing double coverage across the middle, you've got Lutz in his pattern and in the right position and you've got Bray (I think) exactly where he's supposed to be.  Any other quarterback in the SEC could make that throw. 

YOU could make that throw. 

If they are where they are supposed to be -- and granted I haven't broken down any game film -- then the problem reverts back to QB.  Cam had no trouble finding open receivers.  Neither did Iron Legs Todd.  Boy he looks good today, doesn't he? 

I think it's just a case of having zero production at quarterback.  We don't have anybody AT ALL who can perform at this level.  Not sure why that is.  Maybe Cam leaving a year early and then not closing Russell Wilson really did wreck the entire plan. Maybe Malzahn just quit teaching or doesn't know how to teach the game (Cam's mechanics were suspect, but he was just freak enough to overcome).  But I do know this. If you have a QB who can't get the ball to open receivers, you're not going to get the kind of talent at receiver that can get open down the road.

Defensively I really think Chizik likes the bend but don't break concept.  I don't.  He's been successful and guided some tremendous defenses as DC but if you look at his HC gigs (not to go all 5-19) the defenses have been awful.  2005 ISU gives up 230 points.  2006 they give up 369.  Under Chizik 381 and 430.  Rhoads comes in and it goes back to 284.  To be fair the last two ISU teams gave up 346 and 382.  Only two other ISU teams in history gave up more than 430 in a year.  Third worst defense in the history of a horrible program.  Three of the worst defenses in Auburn history. You have to wonder why. 

I don't know the answer.  If we burn Chizik now who is really going to want to come to the program?  We might HAVE to take a chance on somebody like Petrino who needs us as much as we need him. 

Would you want to take over the program?

Bowden:  Wins a record 20-straight games.  Fired/quit during his first losing season.

Tuberville: Beats UA six straight times.  Undefeated in 2004 (best team in the country). Four first round draft picks.  Wins 11 games in 2006.  Has first losing season in ten years and is fired/quits. 

Chizik: Wins a NC. Recruits like a motherfucker.  Coaches a Heisman winner.  May have a losing season  ???

What does that say?

Is it the Bryant curse?  All three won the national coach of the year award.  All three fielded an undefeated team. 

Short answer?  I don't know.  I'm disappointed in the way things are and based on what I saw Saturday not hopeful that it can improve much.  Too many things were awry to fix them all.  Just don't see any easy answers.

Now that's a response. Good stuff.

And yes, even going back to ISU, the fact that Chiz's defenses give up boocoodles of points is bewildering especially considering he was one hell of a DC. I'm almost to the point where I am as confused as I am mad. With Tot and Tubs I could put a finger on it somewhat, as to what the issues were. I just can't quite figure out what the heck is going on with Chizik.

[JR4AU]

I don't think the OL is that bad honestly. You are going to get some pressure. Frazier just holds the ball too long.

And honestly, besides Holland, I thought the defense played a little better. Especially in the first half. But Holland is just horrible. HORRIBLE.

So we have a really bad QB and a really bad Mike. That is a bad combination. I am not sure how you correct that if those players are the best you got.

I also think that Auburn is just not mentally or physically tough enough right now. That is on Chizik. You can instill that in players from year 1...much less year 4. There is no excuse for being mentally or physically weak...

Agree, except that I don't know how to tell, from TV that we're mentally/physically not tough.  It may be true, and it's on Chiz if it is. 

The QB of the offense and defense are the biggest liabilities we have on each side of the ball.  Bad ju ju, and I'm with you, I don't know how you fix it if they simply can't play at this level.

[JR4AU]

I wish I knew, but whatever it is I don't see an immediate fix. 

Frazier is definitely not the answer at quarterback.  I thought that last year but kept hoping I was wrong.  He makes Kodi Burns look like Aaron Rodgers.  Moseley is worse I'm afraid.  I hate Trotter left as bad as he was.  And you KNOW Neil Caudle is kicking his parents in the face for having him three years too early. 

I'm not sure the receivers are that bad or even not being coached well.  In that one picture you've got Blake drawing double coverage across the middle, you've got Lutz in his pattern and in the right position and you've got Bray (I think) exactly where he's supposed to be.  Any other quarterback in the SEC could make that throw. 

YOU could make that throw. 

If they are where they are supposed to be -- and granted I haven't broken down any game film -- then the problem reverts back to QB.  Cam had no trouble finding open receivers.  Neither did Iron Legs Todd.  Boy he looks good today, doesn't he? 

I think it's just a case of having zero production at quarterback.  We don't have anybody AT ALL who can perform at this level.  Not sure why that is.  Maybe Cam leaving a year early and then not closing Russell Wilson really did wreck the entire plan. Maybe Malzahn just quit teaching or doesn't know how to teach the game (Cam's mechanics were suspect, but he was just freak enough to overcome).  But I do know this. If you have a QB who can't get the ball to open receivers, you're not going to get the kind of talent at receiver that can get open down the road.

Defensively I really think Chizik likes the bend but don't break concept.  I don't.  He's been successful and guided some tremendous defenses as DC but if you look at his HC gigs (not to go all 5-19) the defenses have been awful.  2005 ISU gives up 230 points.  2006 they give up 369.  Under Chizik 381 and 430.  Rhoads comes in and it goes back to 284.  To be fair the last two ISU teams gave up 346 and 382.  Only two other ISU teams in history gave up more than 430 in a year.  Third worst defense in the history of a horrible program.  Three of the worst defenses in Auburn history. You have to wonder why. 

I don't know the answer.  If we burn Chizik now who is really going to want to come to the program?  We might HAVE to take a chance on somebody like Petrino who needs us as much as we need him. 

Would you want to take over the program?

Bowden:  Wins a record 20-straight games.  Fired/quit during his first losing season.

Tuberville: Beats UA six straight times.  Undefeated in 2004 (best team in the country). Four first round draft picks.  Wins 11 games in 2006.  Has first losing season in ten years and is fired/quits. 

Chizik: Wins a NC. Recruits like a motherfucker.  Coaches a Heisman winner.  May have a losing season  ???

What does that say?

Is it the Bryant curse?  All three won the national coach of the year award.  All three fielded an undefeated team. 

Short answer?  I don't know.  I'm disappointed in the way things are and based on what I saw Saturday not hopeful that it can improve much.  Too many things were awry to fix them all.  Just don't see any easy answers.

In 3 days of bitching, moaning, creed slinging, and crying...this post says all that needs to be said.  But more will be said.

[Kaos]

In 3 days of bitching, moaning, creed slinging, and crying...this post says all that needs to be said.  But more will be said.

But I didn't even get to mention hats OR cattle. WTF?  It's over?

[GH2001]

But I didn't even get to mention hats OR cattle. WTF?  It's over?

or Sancho.

[JR4AU]

But I didn't even get to mention hats OR cattle. WTF?  It's over?

You had your chance, just like Frazier did on that 3rd and 9 play.  At least you made some sort of play.

[Kaos]

or Sancho.

Sweet.  Forgot that one. 

[Godfather]

I wish I knew, but whatever it is I don't see an immediate fix. 

Frazier is definitely not the answer at quarterback.  I thought that last year but kept hoping I was wrong.  He makes Kodi Burns look like Aaron Rodgers.  Moseley is worse I'm afraid.  I hate Trotter left as bad as he was.  And you KNOW Neil Caudle is kicking his parents in the face for having him three years too early. 

I'm not sure the receivers are that bad or even not being coached well.  In that one picture you've got Blake drawing double coverage across the middle, you've got Lutz in his pattern and in the right position and you've got Bray (I think) exactly where he's supposed to be.  Any other quarterback in the SEC could make that throw. 

YOU could make that throw. 

If they are where they are supposed to be -- and granted I haven't broken down any game film -- then the problem reverts back to QB.  Cam had no trouble finding open receivers.  Neither did Iron Legs Todd.  Boy he looks good today, doesn't he? 

I think it's just a case of having zero production at quarterback.  We don't have anybody AT ALL who can perform at this level.  Not sure why that is.  Maybe Cam leaving a year early and then not closing Russell Wilson really did wreck the entire plan. Maybe Malzahn just quit teaching or doesn't know how to teach the game (Cam's mechanics were suspect, but he was just freak enough to overcome).  But I do know this. If you have a QB who can't get the ball to open receivers, you're not going to get the kind of talent at receiver that can get open down the road.

Defensively I really think Chizik likes the bend but don't break concept.  I don't.  He's been successful and guided some tremendous defenses as DC but if you look at his HC gigs (not to go all 5-19) the defenses have been awful.  2005 ISU gives up 230 points.  2006 they give up 369.  Under Chizik 381 and 430.  Rhoads comes in and it goes back to 284.  To be fair the last two ISU teams gave up 346 and 382.  Only two other ISU teams in history gave up more than 430 in a year.  Third worst defense in the history of a horrible program.  Three of the worst defenses in Auburn history. You have to wonder why. 

I don't know the answer.  If we burn Chizik now who is really going to want to come to the program?  We might HAVE to take a chance on somebody like Petrino who needs us as much as we need him. 

Would you want to take over the program?

Bowden:  Wins a record 20-straight games.  Fired/quit during his first losing season.

Tuberville: Beats UA six straight times.  Undefeated in 2004 (best team in the country). Four first round draft picks.  Wins 11 games in 2006.  Has first losing season in ten years and is fired/quits. 

Chizik: Wins a NC. Recruits like a motherfucker.  Coaches a Heisman winner.  May have a losing season  ???

What does that say?

Is it the Bryant curse?  All three won the national coach of the year award.  All three fielded an undefeated team. 

Short answer?  I don't know.  I'm disappointed in the way things are and based on what I saw Saturday not hopeful that it can improve much.  Too many things were awry to fix them all.  Just don't see any easy answers.

This is dead on target Kaos.

Here is where I look to coaching and see a potential problem.  They are sticking with these guys.  I am average Joe nobody and the mistakes being made by Kiehl IMO are not fixable in practice.  It is the same throws he was making last year.   I am not a 2nd QB is the best type of guy, but I don't understand why you keep trying to stick with something that isn't working. 

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

I don't think Moseley is the answer,  I really don't think Wallace is either, but make the change.  Put them in, put Wallace in if Moseley is hurt.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Spurrier was classic for pulling a QB if it wasn't working, we do it for the other positions with out even batting an eye...do it for QB too. My gerd can it hurt to try? It can't get any worse.

If I can see it...why the fuck can't they? 

[CCTAU]

I don't think Moseley is the answer,  I really don't think Frazier is either, but make the change.  Put them in, put Frazier in if Moseley is hurt. Trotter is just horrible. 

Modified!

This is like dejavu all over again!

[Jumbo]

3rd and 19 and we call a Qb draw up the middle that tells me all I need to know about our coaching staff.

[War Eagle!!!]

3rd and 19 and we call a Qb draw up the middle that tells me all I need to know about our coaching staff.

From our own 10 yard line with a QB that had more interceptions than completions at that point...

Not that cut and dry...

[GH2001]

3rd and 19 and we call a Qb draw up the middle that tells me all I need to know about our coaching staff.

Tells me more what our staff thinks about Frazier.

[Godfather]

3rd and 19 and we call a Qb draw up the middle that tells me all I need to know about our coaching staff.

That was the one call I agreed with.