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Honestly....

Godfather

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2012, 10:56:22 AM »
Dark Matter has mass, anything that has mass receives that mass through its interactions with the Higgs particles.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48084815/ns/technology_and_science-space/#.T_b5NnhrVGQ

Early attempts to calculate vacuum energy (dark energy) failed as the calculations estimated that the energy should be 10^120 times higher than it was actually measured at.  Particle interactions with the Higgs field (where Higgs Boson come from) explains why particles move slower in a vacuum than can be assumed through normal calculaitons

http://www.interactions.org/quantumuniverse/qu/questions/q2.html

And you are referring to the infinite universe theory which says that in an infinite universe any possibility will be certain to happen.  But the problem is the universe isn't really considered infinite.  There is a finite amount of matter/energy and a finite amount of time.  Whether you assume time began at creation or big bang there is a definite start point.  The end point is right now.  I mean now?  Is now now?  You just missed it.

Just don't fuck with the Reavers.
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Snaggletiger

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2012, 10:59:31 AM »
Just don't fuck with the Reavers.

Cruise is gonna' fuck that Jack Reavers role up.
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My doctor told me I needed to stop masturbating.  I asked him why, and he said, "because I'm trying to examine you."

Saniflush

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2012, 11:01:06 AM »
Just don't fuck with the Reavers.

I aint going nowhere near Reaver territory.
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

Saniflush

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2012, 11:02:13 AM »
Cruise is gonna' fuck that Jack Reavers role up.

Troglodyte
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

Buzz Killington

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2012, 11:03:04 AM »
Just don't fuck with the Reavers.



mess you up
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Now I may be an idiot, but there is one thing I am not, sir, and that, sir, is an idiot.

Godfather

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2012, 11:11:49 AM »
I aint going nowhere near Reaver territory.

This is a fertile land and we will thrive.
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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2012, 11:17:24 AM »
The end point is right now.  I mean now?  Is now now?  You just missed it.

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Snaggletiger

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2012, 11:19:06 AM »
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My doctor told me I needed to stop masturbating.  I asked him why, and he said, "because I'm trying to examine you."

Tiger Wench

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2012, 12:13:59 PM »
This is a fertile land and we will thrive.

And we will call it.... This Land.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2012, 12:45:38 PM »
Dark Matter has mass, anything that has mass receives that mass through its interactions with the Higgs particles.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48084815/ns/technology_and_science-space/#.T_b5NnhrVGQ

Early attempts to calculate vacuum energy (dark energy) failed as the calculations estimated that the energy should be 10^120 times higher than it was actually measured at.  Particle interactions with the Higgs field (where Higgs Boson come from) explains why particles move slower in a vacuum than can be assumed through normal calculaitons

I was moreso responding to the fact that you referred to the energy in empty space as "dark matter/dark energy."  It made it look like you were referring to the two as one in the same.

And you are referring to the infinite universe theory which says that in an infinite universe any possibility will be certain to happen.  But the problem is the universe isn't really considered infinite.  There is a finite amount of matter/energy and a finite amount of time.

Not according to Einstein's theories.  Einstein proposes that more space can come into existence, and will in fact come into existence if empty space has dark energy that can propel objects away.  If space has energy, and more space can be created, then more energy can be created.

Granted, that's just a theory, and assumes that there is infinite room for expansion, as opposed to merely moving matter and energy within a finite space.  But then again, assuming that the universe and its amounts of matter and energy are finite is also just a theory.  We haven't identified the finite boundaries of our universe, so stating that the universe is finite in both time and space is a theoretical assumption, just like stating that the universe is infinite in both time and space is a theoretical assumption.

There are also theories about alternate planes/branes in which different universes reside, and that these universes could be infinite in number, if not also space.  Similarly, some scientists theorize that each black hole could contain a separate universe.  Assuming that universe also has a black hole, the theory could lead to an infinite number of universes.  Again, these are all theories, but my point was that there are scientific assumptions regarding the infinite nature of the universe, just as there are religious assumptions about the finite starting point of the universe.

Whether you assume time began at creation or big bang there is a definite start point.  The end point is right now.  I mean now?  Is now now?  You just missed it.

True...if you assume there was a definite starting point.  According to traditional theories of the conservation of mass/energy, matter can neither be created nor destroyed.  So if matter can't be created, then there wasn't a starting point for its creation, and thus it must have always been present for an infinite amount of time.  This is why the big bang was initially theorized not to be a one-time event that was the starting point, but a recurring event that continued for infinity.  That has since been strongly doubted due to the theory of dark energy explaining why the universe is actually accelerating as opposed to slowing down, but was nonetheless a theory that many people believed (and some still believe).

But, if you assume Einstein's theory regarding the creation of space is correct, and thus that the creation of energy is possible, then the traditional conservation of energy theory wouldn't hold true.  You could at that point argue that there was a definite starting point at which creation of all matter occurred, but it's still an assumption that relies on unverified theories.  But then you have a conundrum in which energy can be created, yet you are also assuming that there is a finite amount of space.  If there's a finite amount of space, then we can't create more energy or matter, but that's exactly what Einstein's theory regarding dark energy assumes.

Again, that's only one theory regarding dark energy and how it operates; there are tons of others.  But the point is that some of the theories do tend to suggest that the universe is infinite, so I'm not of the opinion that we can definitely conclude that the universe is finite in time, space, or any other characteristic.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 12:52:10 PM by Vandy Vol »
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Saniflush

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2012, 01:03:13 PM »
And we will call it.... This Land.

I think we should call it your grave.
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

Tiger Wench

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2012, 01:13:52 PM »
I think we should call it your grave.

Curse your sudden, but inevitable betrayal!!!
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Godfather

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2012, 02:40:27 PM »
Curse your sudden, but inevitable betrayal!!!
Ha ha ha, mine is an evil laugh, now die!

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Saniflush

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2012, 03:31:15 PM »
Ha ha ha, mine is an evil laugh, now die!



Yea, and I'd like to be king of all Londinium and wear a shiny hat.
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

Re: Honestly....
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2012, 03:42:43 PM »

There are also theories about alternate planes/branes in which different universes reside, and that these universes could be infinite in number, if not also space.  Similarly, some scientists theorize that each black hole could contain a separate universe.  Assuming that universe also has a black hole, the theory could lead to an infinite number of universes.  Again, these are all theories, but my point was that there are scientific assumptions regarding the infinite nature of the universe, just as there are religious assumptions about the finite starting point of the universe.



Soooooo.... You have no problem with rattling off multi-verse theorem but in an older thread you couldn't understand religious people because what they believed in couldn't be proven.  Got it.
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You meet a man on the Oregon Trail. He tells you his name is Terry. You laugh and tell him: "That's a girl's name!" Terry shoots you. You have died of dissin' Terry.

Saniflush

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2012, 03:43:59 PM »
Soooooo.... You have no problem with rattling off multi-verse theorem but in an older thread you couldn't understand religious people because what they believed in couldn't be proven.  Got it.


God told him to do that.
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

Re: Honestly....
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2012, 03:44:30 PM »
Soooooo.... You have no problem with rattling off multi-verse theorem but in an older thread you couldn't understand religious people because what they believed in couldn't be proven.  Got it.

Roasted.
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The Guy That Knows Nothing of Hyperbole

Vandy Vol

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2012, 04:23:48 PM »
Soooooo.... You have no problem with rattling off multi-verse theorem but in an older thread you couldn't understand religious people because what they believed in couldn't be proven.  Got it.

You completely missed my point.

I never said that the scientific theories were proven, or that I personally believed in any one of them.  In fact, you'll note that I cited various scientific theories, some of which are conflicting.

The purpose of citing those theories was to show that there are theories that involve infinite possibilities, and with infinite possibilities, a complex structure could randomly occur without intelligent design.  But it requires an assumption to conclude that there are infinite possibilities in regard to our universe.  Just like concluding that something complex must have been intelligently created is also an assumption, not to mention that it is logic which creates an infinite loop.

If you read what I've recently posted in conjunction with this initial post, it may make more sense:

Not to turn this into a religious discussion, but anything that intelligently creates something so complex must itself be complex.  If one's logic is that X must have been created by Y because X is extraordinarily complex, then Y, as a complex entity, must also have been created by something complex.  This logic becomes an infinite loop with no definitive conclusion.

Similarly, if you assume that the universe has collapsed upon itself and exploded in a big bang an infinite number of times (or if you assume that there is an infinite number of alternate universes), then it's statistically sound to conclude that the Higgs boson would appear in one of the infinite versions of the universe.  But it's still an assumption that never gives you an answer as to how all matter originated.

What the above essentially boils down to for me is that the discovery of the Higgs boson doesn't lend more evidence to God's existence, or vice versa.  The assumptions that believers and scientists have made prior to this discovery still apply, and the existence of the Higgs boson doesn't lend any more credence to either assumption.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Honestly....
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2012, 04:28:48 PM »
Roasted.

More like misinterpreted.  I never pointed to any one theory and said, "This is true!"  I simply pointed to theories which do involve an infinite number of universes and/or space in response to AU 2000's statement that the universe is finite.

They're all theories that require assumptions.  If they didn't, then we would know everything about the universe.  That's my point:  somewhere along the way, you have to make an assumption (theory) and run with it.  Some scientists side with theories that the universe is finite, while others take the stance that it is infinite in one way or another.

Ultimately, the entire point of referencing any scientific theory at all was to compare it to religious beliefs, and to show how the discovery of the Higgs boson doesn't affect either side of the debate.
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"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." - Dean Martin

Re: Honestly....
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2012, 04:47:18 PM »
Scientific theories are much different than layman's theories. 

Quote
Some scientists side with theories that the universe is finite, while others take the stance that it is infinite in one way or another.

I think you're confusing theory with hypothesis.  I'm not a scientist, but I know that when scientists use the word "theory," it means that tests and analyses have consistently confirmed the hypothesis. 

Which is why "M-Theory" is such science fiction bullshit.  You can't test for it.  It's not falsifiable making it hack science.  To a person who studies science, bringing up m-theory is no different than a creationist claiming "God did it!"
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The Guy That Knows Nothing of Hyperbole