Trayvon

[JR4AU]

I believe that it is reasonably understandable for a kid to attack someone for fear of their own safety after they've obviously been followed on foot for several blocks through a neighborhood.

If you believe that, then all other discussion is futile.  You've formed an opinion that runs contrary to law, then based your entire position and supporting arguments around it. 

[WiregrassTiger]

If Trayvon had been suspended from school, for having wimenz jewlery and a burglary tool, whatever that is(which is what I've read)--was this admissible?

[JR4AU]

If Trayvon had been suspended from school, for having wimenz jewlery and a burglary tool, whatever that is(which is what I've read)--was this admissible?

Probably not.

[Tiger Wench]

THERE WAS NO HOMICIDE. WE WILL NEVER AGREE ON THAT!

I think you mean that there was no murder.  Any death at the hands of another person is homicide, regardless of intent or means or method.  It's either natural causes, suicide, death by misfortune/accidental or homicide.

And Chizad, I still have no problem with Zimmerman being convicted of manslaughter, which, again per Wiki, is determined based on state of mind and mitigating circumstances.  I have not seen all the evidence, but if the jury believes there is enough proof to say he had some culpability in Martin's death, I can accept that, as long as he is found innocent of second degree murder.  But even if that is the verdict, I don't think he should do serious time. 

My biggest complaint comes when people assume that because a person carries a gun, they are automatically looking to shoot someone.  That's just not true.  Regardless of one's level of Barney Fife'dom, the fact that Zimmerman was legally carrying a weapon should not automatically translate into intent to commit murder in the second degree.

[AUChizad]

So you think tray on had a right to defend himself because he was being hounded but at the same time you don't think Zimmerman had any right to defend himself from having his head bashed on the concrete?? Good grief man.

Again, I explicitly said I don't think it was necessarily right, but certainly understandable given the circumstances. And where did I say Zimmerman had no right to defend himself? I said that he probably, based on what we know, went above and beyond reasonable due force considering he killed an unarmed kid.

And the judge allowing for manslaughter AFTER closing arguments is utter bullshit. With that, this has indeed become a kangaroo court. He was brought in on a murder charge. He is either guilty of the charge or not. They knew their murder case was crap and are pulling this 11th hour bullshit.

This is not too far off from what CCTAU was saying. If the Boston bomber was cleared on using a WMD but then later was charged for attempted murder of a police officer, assuming he wasn't initially charged of this in this hypothetical example, would you declare it to be "11th hour bullshit"?

You're essentially saying "Well yeah he's guilty of manslaughter, but I want him to get away with that."

If you believe that, then all other discussion is futile.  You've formed an opinion that runs contrary to law, then based your entire position and supporting arguments around it. 

Ok...

I don't know how else to spell this out. I said several times that I don't think whether or not Trayvon had a clear motivation to attack Zimmerman has any bearing on his right to self defense. I think using excessive force on an unarmed person is the problem here.

The opinion part is that I understand the psychology that would lead a person who has been followed through a neighborhood to finally turn around and ask him what the fuck his problem is and strike first before he was attacked. For the 12,000th time, I don't think it's necessarily right, and I certainly don't think it has any legal bearing whatsoever, but it is reasonable, understandable behavior is all I'm saying.

So answer me. Do you think that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman for absolutely no reason? You think he didn't know he was following him? You think he just assaulted him for sport?

[AUChizad]

I think you mean that there was no murder.  Any death at the hands of another person is homicide, regardless of intent or means or method.  It's either natural causes, suicide, death by misfortune/accidental or homicide.

And Chizad, I still have no problem with Zimmerman being convicted of manslaughter, which, again per Wiki, is determined based on state of mind and mitigating circumstances.  I have not seen all the evidence, but if the jury believes there is enough proof to say he had some culpability in Martin's death, I can accept that, as long as he is found innocent of second degree murder.  But even if that is the verdict, I don't think he should do serious time. 

My biggest complaint comes when people assume that because a person carries a gun, they are automatically looking to shoot someone.  That's just not true.  Regardless of one's level of Barney Fife'dom, the fact that Zimmerman was legally carrying a weapon should not automatically translate into intent to commit murder in the second degree.

Again, I agree with all of this. Any implication that any of that which you are rallying against is my position is a straw man.

[Tiger Wench]

If someone is following me, I am not going to turn around and confront them.  If I am a truly innocent party, I get to safety and call the cops.  Martin obviously had a phone - he was talking to that idiot chick.  Why not hang up and call the cops?  "Hey, 9-1-1, some freaky Whitspanic dude is following me!"

The last thing I am going to think of doing is turning around, confronting the guy and start kicking his ass.  Seriously, Chizad, you would "strike first", as you put it, because you think you MIGHT be attacked? 

Let's say that Martin was not shot and killed - but all the rest happened.  Zimmerman gets his head pounded into the sidewalk and because he has no means to defend himself, he gets his skull cracked, and his brain is injured.  The cops show up and Martin says "Well, I thought he was following me, so I decked him, and pounded him into the concrete, because I thought he MIGHT hit me first." 

Would Martin not be charged with a felony, maybe even attempted murder, for smashing Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk hard enough to cause brain damage? 

But because of the gun, things were different.  Should Zimmerman have had to wait until his brains were leaking out his ears before he pulled the trigger?

The only reason I am saying manslaughter occurred is because Zimmerman could have backed off before the situation escalated.  But since the Prosecution was so damn gung ho to get him on M2, then too bad - they made their bed, they should lay in it. 

[AUChizad]

The only reason I am saying manslaughter occurred is because Zimmerman could have backed off before the situation escalated.

Again, this is all that I'm really saying, especially from a legal standpoint.

Everything else, I'm just saying, while not "right" by any means, is understandable behavior for a human being to react, and doesn't necessarily make him a thug looking for trouble either. All of that is completely circumstantial.

[WiregrassTiger]

Again, this is all that I'm really saying, especially from a legal standpoint.

Everything else, I'm just saying, while not "right" by any means, is understandable behavior for a human being to react, and doesn't necessarily make him a thug looking for trouble either. All of that is completely circumstantial.

I don't see how circumcision has any relevance in this debate.

[CCTAU]

Again, this is all that I'm really saying, especially from a legal standpoint.

Everything else, I'm just saying, while not "right" by any means, is understandable behavior for a human being to react, and doesn't necessarily make him a thug looking for trouble either. All of that is completely circumstantial.

Which equates to NOT GUILTY!

There is no "legal standpoint" for using excessive force when being beaten. You use the force necessary to save your own life. 

There is no "legal standpoint" saying Zimmerman had to "back off".

He wasn't doping anything illegal. He was following an unknown individual in his neighborhood. You know, the one he was on the neighborhood watch of.

He did not shoot the kid with malice or without provocation. THEREFORE SELF DEFENSE.

To see it any other way is to give up our lives to those who have no respect or regard for out safety or personal property.

Was it a tragedy? Sure. But the kid would still be alive today had he just talked instead of attacking.

[JR4AU]

Again, I explicitly said I don't think it was necessarily right, but certainly understandable given the circumstances. And where did I say Zimmerman had no right to defend himself? I said that he probably, based on what we know, went above and beyond reasonable due force considering he killed an unarmed kid.
This is not too far off from what CCTAU was saying. If the Boston bomber was cleared on using a WMD but then later was charged for attempted murder of a police officer, assuming he wasn't initially charged of this in this hypothetical example, would you declare it to be "11th hour bullshit"?

You're essentially saying "Well yeah he's guilty of manslaughter, but I want him to get away with that."
Ok...

I don't know how else to spell this out. I said several times that I don't think whether or not Trayvon had a clear motivation to attack Zimmerman has any bearing on his right to self defense. I think using excessive force on an unarmed person is the problem here.

The opinion part is that I understand the psychology that would lead a person who has been followed through a neighborhood to finally turn around and ask him what the fuck his problem is and strike first before he was attacked. For the 12,000th time, I don't think it's necessarily right, and I certainly don't think it has any legal bearing whatsoever, but it is reasonable, understandable behavior is all I'm saying.

So answer me. Do you think that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman for absolutely no reason? You think he didn't know he was following him? You think he just assaulted him for sport?

I know what you mean.  I once prosecuted a woman for assault.  She claimed self defense.  She said the victim "looked at her hard."  Serious too.  She said that in the trial before the judge, and in her world that was complete justification to go on the offensive.  It's why so many people that come from her world go to prison and/or die violent deaths.

As was stated by K, if Trayvon decided he'd had enough of "being followed" and decided to kick some ass, then he took his intended victim as he found him: armed and stupid.  When your psychological make up runs contrary to civilized society, that shit will happen on occasion.  Can't punish the ones that live outside that bubble for acting accordingly.

[Vandy Vol]

I just want to know when all of this tan on black violence will end.

[AUTailgatingRules]

What if Zimmerman had not followed travon, and travon broke into a house and raped or killed someone be fore the cops got there?  Zimmerman had no idea trayvon w as a teenager, had no idea why he was in the neighborhood, how was he supposed to know he had no ill intentions?  As a part of the neighborhood watch, I would expect him to follow or keep trayvon in sight until the cops arrive. Not his fault trayvon brought fists to a gun fight

Not guilty on all counts

[WiregrassTiger]

Zimmerman had no idea trayvon w as a teenager, had no idea why he was in the neighborhood, how was he supposed to know he had no ill intentions?

Are you serious? Don't you get CNN? Because Trayvon was black, you racist.

[Townhallsavoy]

I just want to know when all of this white-tan on black violence will end.

FTFY

[AUTailgatingRules]

I just want to know when all of this tan on black violence will end.

When our White/Black president tells everyone to stand down

[Kaos]

When our White/Black president tells everyone to stand down

He already done said this cracker is guilty. 

This guy is the worst president ever, ever, ever, ever.  His alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood has turned Egypt from a strong ally in the middle east to a cauldron of unrest and our enemy. 

He's screwing Israel over. 

He's using federal agencies to punish his detractors and manipulate the media and national perception (yes, he directed the DOJ to support Trayvon rallies). 

And when Zimmerman is freed, he will probably deputize the National Guard to go arrest him for something or other. 

Obama is bad news for this country.  He's a socialist and an elitist for no other reason than he declared himself to be.  His credentials don't support his buffoonish snobbery.  And his wife looks like RGIII. 

[The Six]

And when Zimmerman is freed...

Ain't gonna happen

[JR4AU]

He already done said this cracker is guilty. 

This guy is the worst president ever, ever, ever, ever.  His alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood has turned Egypt from a strong ally in the middle east to a cauldron of unrest and our enemy. 

He's screwing Israel over. 

He's using federal agencies to punish his detractors and manipulate the media and national perception (yes, he directed the DOJ to support Trayvon rallies). 

And when Zimmerman is freed, he will probably deputize the National Guard to go arrest him for something or other. 

Obama is bad news for this country.  He's a socialist and an elitist for no other reason than he declared himself to be.  His credentials don't support his buffoonish snobbery.  And his wife looks like RGIII.

I see what you're doin' there.

[Kaos]

I see what you're doin' there.