Religion Poll

[wesfau2]

I know what I believe and I accept the facts that not everyone has the same beliefs as I do.  To call it dogmatic brainwashing from birth is offensive to me as I am not a lemming.  It took me many years to come to my own conclusions. 

Would you have still ended up a Christian had you been born in Syria?

In other words, were all religions afforded equal consideration during your process or only those that were readily available to you?

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that this is what Chad is saying:  The seeds for your particular religious paradigm are planted by the family and social network that you are born into and very few people venture beyond that.

We've heard testimonials from people born into an environment of a particular religion.  These people questioned the faith that they were born into, but have not communicated their exploration of other religions.

[AUChizad]

...Who can separate reality from goofing around. 

Didn't answer the question, either. 

I'm not the only agnostic/atheist in this thread, let alone the entire world. I don't get your point. Furthermore, only one faction of those people are "right". Despite what most people here have suggested, the popular belief within all of these religions is that only "their" religion has any validity, and the rest is fairy tale nonsense...and other believers go to hell or its equivalent. At best, Christianity is "right", and that means 2/3 of the world were wrong and going to hell. Then there are many of those who believe that only their denomination is "right", so that makes even less people who are safe from the flames of hell, no matter what the truth is.

Because everyone loves a good pie chart...


Only Christians and Muslims are more popular than "nonreligious" people. And even those are divided into sects whose ideologies are at odds with each other. Of course in fairness, "nonreligious" is segmented as well.

[AUTiger1]

Cool.

I appreciate everyone that is taking part in this thread. I can't believe we actually have a 5 page thread on the X without any hijacks, 2 year old arguments, or anything of that sort. Minor miracle. Maybe I SHOULD believe in a higher power, ha.

By making this statement I have to ask, are you agnostic or atheists?  Maybe I am misunderstanding the difference here, but I always thought an agnostic neither believes nor denies the existence or non existence of a deity and an atheists chooses to deny the existence of a deity outright.  

[AUChizad]

By making this statement I have to ask, are you agnostic or atheists?  Maybe I am misunderstanding the difference here, but I always thought an agnostic neither believes nor denies the existence or non existence of a deity and an atheists chooses to deny the existence of a deity outright.  

There are hypothetically "hard atheists" that believe they are 100% positive that there does not exist a God. You are very unlikely to encounter these types of people.

Then there are "soft atheists" who are much more prevalent, who believe that it is far less likely that a God exists than that one does.

Then there are agnostics, which believe the absence or presence of a God are equally likely. 50/50.

[Tiger Wench]

Interesting thing about Chad's pie chart - most all of the smallest religious sects (Jews, Buddists, Chinese traditional, African/primarl traditional) have all been persecuted to the point of nearly extinction at many points in history, including modern times. Some of that persecution has been at the hands of secular leaders (example - the Chinese oppression of the Dhali Lama and many other religions they perceive as a threat to power) but others have been persecuted or "missionaried" out of existence (see every Catholic or Protestant missionary in Africa or South America).

Christians get put in between a rock and a hard place.  Have a deep conviction that yours is the One True Religion and go out and prosetlyize and convert the heathens, and be seen by others as arrogant and intolerant and self-righteous.  Or stay home, worry about your own relationship with God before you get all conversion happy on the ignorant natives in Bungobungo, and risk failing to follow the basic premise of Jesus's message - Go forth and teach others that man may only come to the Father through me.

My own choice is more like the last.  My main job is to worry about my own soul.  My other job is to take my kids to church and Sunday School where they can learn the tenets of my faith and the basic morals and values that our society adheres to for the most part (I don't care what you are - The Ten Commandments are pretty simplistic and basic and would apply to any religion).  I give my kids the foundation during the time they are young and impressionable, and then hope that they will continue in that path when they get older.  The basic foundation is the same for all so I don't call it indoctrination - I would not be upset if they chose one day to belong to some other congregation - but I don't think my 6 year old is at a point now where she can choose to be one versus the other for a rational reason.  Her father and I are Methodist so she goes to a Methodist church.  Period.  

"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it."  I don't interpret that to mean "Train up a child as a Methodist/Baptist/Catholic/Presbyterian" but rather to teach them the way to go to be a moral person with values and good character.  

Bottom line, I believe in the Message, not the earthly messenger.

[Aubie16]

By making this statement I have to ask, are you agnostic or atheists?  Maybe I am misunderstanding the difference here, but I always thought an agnostic neither believes nor denies the existence or non existence of a deity and an atheists chooses to deny the existence of a deity outright.  

I am an agnostic in the fact that I have no idea whether god exists or not. I'm not going to deny the existence of god, just like I am not going to say that he certainly exists. I don't have a clue.

Maybe it is my misunderstanding, but if you don't believe in a higher power than I would assume you don't believe in heaven or hell.  If that's the case than why would you care about options B or C?

I believe that IF there is an "all knowing, all loving" god, like many religions claim, surely he won't send 2/3rd's of the world to hell for not believing in the correct religion. I have no idea which religion is right, or if any of them are right.

If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.

[AUTiger1]

Would you have still ended up a Christian had you been born in Syria?

In other words, were all religions afforded equal consideration during your process or only those that were readily available to you?

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that this is what Chad is saying:  The seeds for your particular religious paradigm are planted by the family and social network that you are born into and very few people venture beyond that.

We've heard testimonials from people born into an environment of a particular religion.  These people questioned the faith that they were born into, but have not communicated their exploration of other religions.

Who said I was a Christian? 

To try and answer your question, if I were born in Syria I would probably claim to be Muslim and still just live my life how I want to live my life. Then again, I might be like 10% to 15% of the population and be a Christian b/c some missionary helped me to explore another option.  I just can't honestly answer that question b/c I was not put in that situation.   

[wesfau2]

If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.

This is the crux of most religions.  The details and players get mixed up, but the basic message remains the same.

Religion was very useful as a system of societal control: don't kill, don't steal, be nice to your neighbors.

Somewhere along the way, men learned to profit and subjugate with it.

[AUChizad]

I believe that IF there is an "all knowing, all loving" god, like many religions claim, surely he won't send 2/3rd's of the world to hell for not believing in the correct religion. I have no idea which religion is right, or if any of them are right.

If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.

This also begs the question that if there is a God in the most basic sense, as in an intelligent design, does that necessarily mean there is a heaven and hell? To me, the concept of a good place you go when you're good and a bad place you go when you're bad, that was previously believed to be in the sky and below the earth's crust until that was proven to be scientifically impossible, and is now believed to be some other dimension outside of this universe, is a little Santa Clausish.

This reminds me of the movie "The Invention of Lying". Has anyone seen this? Basically, they live in an alternate universe where everyone always tells the truth, because the concept of lying just hasn't ever occurred to them. So the main character's mother falls ill and tells him she's afraid for her life to end and there to be nothing. He comforts her by telling her that what actually happens when you die is you go to a magical place where you no longer feel pain, you're young again, and everyone you've ever known and loved is there. The doctors overhear this and are shocked, wanting to know more. Everyone wants to know how he knows about this magical place, and he's forced to make up more and more. For example, when asked how one makes it to the magical place he says "There's an invisible man...in the sky...he watches over everything we do and say at all times..." etc.

[wesfau2]

Who said I was a Christian?  

If you're not, then you didn't answer the poll.

To try and answer your question, if I were born in Syria I would probably claim to be Muslim and still just live my life how I want to live my life. Then again, I might be like 10% to 15% of the population and be a Christian b/c some missionary helped me to explore another option.  I just can't honestly answer that question b/c I was not put in that situation.    

The point is that I don't believe Chad was intending "indoctrination" in a pejorative sense.  Only that most people will accept the religion of their childhood or reject religion entirely.  There doesn't appear to be a lot of religion-jumping.

[AUTiger1]

I am an agnostic in the fact that I have no idea whether god exists or not. I'm not going to deny the existence of god, just like I am not going to say that he certainly exists. I don't have a clue.

I believe that IF there is an "all knowing, all loving" god, like many religions claim, surely he won't send 2/3rd's of the world to hell for not believing in the correct religion. I have no idea which religion is right, or if any of them are right.

If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.

Thanks for the answer. I have a co-worker who will get extremely pissed if you call him an atheist and he will tell you that he is agnostic.  He will also vehemently deny the existence of a deity of any kind. In his mind "shit just happened" and there is no arguing with him that is the stance of a hardcore atheist not an agnostic.

[Aubie16]

This also begs the question that if there is a God in the most basic sense, as in an intelligent design, does that necessarily mean there is a heaven and hell? To me, the concept of a good place you go when you're good and a bad place you go when you're bad, that was previously believed to be in the sky and below the earth's crust until that was proven to be scientifically impossible, and is now believed to be some other dimension outside of this universe, is a little Santa Clausish.

Yes...I've often wondered if these were originally invented (similar to Wes's thinking) in order to get men to behave in a civilized manner and control them. Kind of a scare tactic. Who knows.

[Aubie16]

Thanks for the answer. I have a co-worker who will get extremely pissed if you call him an atheist and he will tell you that he is agnostic.  He will also vehemently deny the existence of a deity of any kind. In his mind "shit just happened" and there is no arguing with him that is the stance of a hardcore atheist not an agnostic.

I think the problem could be that, in certain areas of the country, atheist has such a negative connotation that it almost stirs up images of satan worshipping, etc. He may be trying to avoid being associated with that.

[Ogre]

This is an interesting topic for me, as I have struggled with my faith over the past few years.  I was raised a Southern Baptist.  I believe in God, and I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.  I believe that God sent Jesus to earth to die for my sins (and boy have I sinned) so that I may be saved from sin and spend eternity in Heaven.

All that said, I will be the first to admit that although I am a believer in Christ, based on how I currently live my life I am not a follower of Christ.  Just look at my avatar if you need proof.  I know that I am not living my life like I have been called to, and yet I don't do anything to change myself.  That's probably worse than being an atheist in some Christians' eyes.

I know that a lot of my actions are not considered moral or acceptable in God's (or society's) eyes, but I continue to go down that path.  I'm not sure why that is - but in the back of my mind I think that one day I will get back on the straight-and-narrow.  Then again, I'm 30 years old with a kid.  If not now, when?  

[AUTiger1]

If you're not, then you didn't answer the poll.

The point is that I don't believe Chad was intending "indoctrination" in a pejorative sense.  Only that most people will accept the religion of their childhood or reject religion entirely.  There doesn't appear to be a lot of religion-jumping.

I took what he said to be a snide little swipe at one's belief in a higher power.  True enough that a lot of people believe what they believe b/c of their cultural upbringing.  It is also true that some people don't.  Koas may or may not be one of those.  I work with a guy (well he is on a different contract, but sits down the hall) that was a Muslim until he was converted by a missionary in his twenties.  Something was said to him that made him question his faith and he began to ask questions and look for answers. He is a perfect example of someone who came to his own conclusions.  It doesn't happen everyday, but it does happen.  I just thought it to be a broad brush he was painting with.

I marked Christian in the poll, although I don't consider myself to be one.  

[AUChizad]

I took what he said to be a snide little swipe at one's belief in a higher power.

I'm sorry you took it that way, as that was not what was intended. I haven't corrected Wes in his assumptions, because he is exactly correct.

I marked Christian in the poll, although I don't consider myself to be one.  

Interesting. So what would you consider yourself? Why mark Christian when you are not?

[AUChizad]

Because everyone loves a good pie chart...


Only Christians and Muslims are more popular than "nonreligious" people. And even those are divided into sects whose ideologies are at odds with each other. Of course in fairness, "nonreligious" is segmented as well.

Back to this for a moment...

I find it fascinating that Judaism is the least popular religion of those charted, including Sikhism (0.36% vs. 0.22%).

There's shockingly almost twice as many Sikhs as there are Jews.

I guess that's because many ethnically Jewish people fall into the "nonreligious" category when it comes to religion. Still that's far lower than my misconception prior to looking up the numbers.

[Kaos]

This can't be right.  How can 0.22% of the population control all the major television networks and movie companies?  

More than 0.22% of the people in show business are Jewish.  

And how do you explain all those bagels?

[AUChizad]

Since I wanted to avoid "getting into it" in another thread, and this thread is entirely about "it", I figured I'd respond to a post that I bit my tongue on earlier here.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying.

Except I don't believe there is a real threat to expel kids for wearing crosses or having a Bible in their satchel.

I agree with most of what he said as well....and to clarify, my post wasn't supposed to be so much specifically about "god in school" or the US being a "Christian nation".  It was more about letting our historical morals fade into European apathy.  And while I don't think public schools need to be teaching kids the Bible, there is also no reason to have the Bible and the Christian heritage of our nation ignored and specifically deleted from our history just because that history is being taught in a public school.

As much as liberals want it completely out of school and our history....it is our history, and it's just putting your head in the sand (not "you" literally) to think otherwise.

Here are a few quotes from Ben Franklin:

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

The history of our founding fathers is littered with these kinds of quotes and discussions and I could post pages and pages of quotes by Franklin, Hamilton, Hancock, Henry, Adams (all of them), Jay, Jefferson Madison, etc.  It's everywhere... except where it's been deleted or left out intentionally in our current history books.  

To me, there is a big difference in expecting the government to push Christianity (which I do NOT expect in any form or fashion), or simply allowing it to exist in it's historical context in regards to our country.  THAT I do expect and get really irritated with they take it out based on the "church and state" argument.

While the model of our three branches is similar and partly derived from other government ideas.  What did Madison read at the Constitutional Convention to explain where the model comes from?  He read Isaiah 33:22 which says "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king".  He credited this passage as the inspiration for the idea of the three branches.  You will never, never, never find that referenced in a public school history book.  Seem pretty relevant to me, in a historical context, seeing as it was read at he constitutional convention and read by James Madison.  But nope, it's from the Bible and has the word "Lord" in it....gottta go, no matter what the historical significance or relevance.

Anyway, most of my point in the first post is reflected in Franklin's quote above where he says "do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?".  See, the founders thought their faith in God to be very important and relevant to their political ideas and aspirations, and more importantly to the people of our country...which is why John Adams said this...

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

Sure, we've changed a lot.  And again, I'm not expecting the government to push Christianity on America  But I'm also tired of them going out of their way to push it away from America.  In in the much bigger picture (and point of my first post), I'm tired of "morals" and "goodness" (no matter the source...Christian or otherwise) being mocked and shoved off to the side.  Christian or not, the more we do that, the worse our society gets....anyone that's been alive 30+ years can see that.

I can find an abundance of quotes from founding fathers that support the opposite.

Thomas Jefferson:

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." 1787 letter to his nephew

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." Unknown

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Unknown

"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus told us indeed that 'God is a spirit,' but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally, held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an etherial gas; but still matter." letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." Notes on Virginia

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" Letter to von Humboldt, 1813

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" Letter to H. Spafford, 1814

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810

"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'" From Jefferson's biography

"I never told my religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I have judged others' religions by their lives, for it is from our lives and not our words that our religions must be read."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God."

James Madison:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." April 1, 1774

"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

John Adams

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it."

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years." letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in In God We Trust and 2000 Years of Disbelief

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles." letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?" etter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world." "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardi

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it." letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Di

"It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [formation of the American governments] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven..."

Abraham Lincoln

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." Joseph Lewis quoting Lincoln in a 1924 speech in New York

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." Lincoln in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln

Susan B. Anthony

"The religious persecution of the ages has been done under what was claimed to be the command of God." Rufus K. Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."

"What you should say to outsiders is that a Christian has neither more nor less rights in our Association than an atheist. When our platform becomes too narrow for people of all creeds and of no creeds, I myself shall not stand upon it." Susan B. Anthony: A Biography, by Kathleen Barry, New York University Press, 1988, p.310

Benjamin Franklin

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." Franklin's Autobiography

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the want of it."

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

Ulysses S. Grant

"Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and the state forever separated."

George Washington

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society."     Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792  

Theodore Roosevelt

"To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life." letter to J. C. Martin, 9 November 1908

"I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State; that public moneys shall not be used for the purpose of advancing any particular creed; and therefore that the public schools shall be nonsectarian and no public moneys appropriated for sectarian schools." Carnegie Hall address, 12 October 1915

[Kaos]

Theodore Roosevelt wasn't a founding father. Neither was Lincoln. Or Susan B.  But I digress. 

The quotes you referenced actually don't support your position at all. 

Nothing in Jefferson's quotes indicated that he didn't believe in Christ or Christianity, only that he lamented the manner in which some chose to express it. 

Same with the others. 

Is that really any surprise considering that this country was first populated (white populated) by refugees from religious persecution? 

When Jefferson says ""The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." " is that his hope or his dread?  There's no context there. 

I believe that the day will come when followers of Jesus are mocked and his worth given little credence (Flying Spaghetti Monster anyone?).  Does that mean I wish for that day or am comforted by it?  No, only that I feel it is inevitable.

Are you seriously surprised that the leaders of a nation founded on religious freedom would be hesitant to hand authority over to a sovereign church since that was the life their fathers had fled to establish this country?  To conclude that in doing so these men rejected the tenets of Christianity is a completely illogical leap. 

Their position was against a church state -- the type of government they fled in England -- not against the moral values of Christianity. 

When Madison says "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." of course I agree. People throughout history have used the robe of Jesus to shield their absurd acts.  Oral Roberts locked himself in a tower and said Jesus would kill him unless he raised several million dollars.  That was absurd and done in Jesus' name.  But you can't extrapolate that to mean that everything associated with Jesus or Christianity is absurd. 

Adams questions the acts committed in the name of Christ.  How did we get to the point where we are willing to kill because someone believes differently?  I ask the same question today.  Why do we fight against Muslims -- and they us -- because we choose to worship the SAME GOD in a different manner?  Does my question somehow make me less a Christian or mean that I reject Christian values?  Hardly. 

I know I give you a hard time about comprehension, but in this instance I don't think you really understand what the founding fathers were saying.  You're taking their words and using them to create a position that I'm positive didn't exist.  Nothing you quoted shows in any way shape or form that any of the men rejected Christianity or its values. 

The "church" yes.  But you also have to understand the context of church as it existed in that time. 

I have no interest in a church state.  Doesn't mean I'm anti Christian.