Religion Poll

[AUTiger1]

I'm sorry you took it that way, as that was not what was intended. I haven't corrected Wes in his assumptions, because he is exactly correct.

No biggie.  A wise man once told me when talking politics, you need to learn to check your feelings at the door ($1 to wes)  Same rule applies to religion as well.

Interesting. So what would you consider yourself? Why mark Christian when you are not?

Pretty much read Ogre's response.

I have read and studied for years.  I have asked many questions along the way.  Yes, I believe in God, too much going on all at the same time for it to be just one big coincidence in my mind.  I believe that the same God wants me to do what is right, live a good moral life, obey his commandments and try my best to live "the straight and narrow".  I believe that we are a creation of his image and that he loves us and wants us to love him.  Do I do those things?  Not even close. I do some things that are acceptable, I donate to charity, I genuinely try to help people that are in need and when they need it.  I try to be polite and courteous to everyone most of the time. I go to church from time to time (more often that not). I do a lot of things that make me look good in others eyes.......but.......

Those things are not enough though. I believe that one has to try and live a Christian life before they can even consider to call themselves Christian. My wife is a good example of this.  She tries her hardest, she lives her life in a good Christian way 90% of the time.  Just b/c she might say poop, hell, damn, ass and bitch from time to time and have margarita from time to time, doesn't meant that she is a bad person or not a Christian. When she messes up, as she like to call it, she knows that she has to ask for forgiveness.  She understands as well as I do that the bible teaches that we are not perfect and will sin.  She chooses to let it bother her and do what her teachings tell her in order to make it right.  Me, I don't ask and most of the time I don't care, nor does it bother my conscious.  

The bible, the "inspired word of God" (not his literal word, man had his hand in it so you know some things got screwed up along the way) if you choose to believe it will tell you that many will hear the word and many will believe the word, but many will not accept word.  Now when I was early teens I was baptized into Christ, but now that relationship is pretty much non-existent b/c I no longer follow his teachings.  I don't believe in the once saved always saved doctrine that some do.  

I am too lazy to look it up, but in Peter's (II Peter I think) teachings he says be holy in all you do, that if you escape worldliness and accept Christ only to fall back in, you are worse off in the end than you were at the beginning, and it would have been better to have not known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned your back on it .  (Paraphrase)  That leads me to believe that one can lose their salvation. Like Ogre said that could be far worse than being an atheist in some Christian's eyes.  I may choose to follow that path again someday, I may not.  I can't say with certainty.  

In short, I marked it, b/c I believe in the Christan God and Christian views, but that doesn't mean that I consider myself a Christian.  I don't live my life according to Christian teachings nor do I even pretend to try.  

 
EDIT: These are my personal beliefs, if someone else looks at being a Christian differently, that is up to them and their right.  I don't claim to be right, just stated what I believe.  I will not judge you nor bash you and your beliefs.

[Aubie16]

If we're quoting Jefferson...here is my favorite:

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

[Kaos]

If we're quoting Jefferson...here is my favorite:

And again that doesn't indicate Jefferson's lack of belief in a deity. 

Blind devotion is just that.  Blind.  You should always ask questions and search for answers. 

[AUChizad]

Theodore Roosevelt wasn't a founding father. Neither was Lincoln. Or Susan B.  But I digress.

Fair enough, but I thought they were prominent American figures with quotes that would be shocking coming from a President today. Those you mentioned besides Roosevelt all appear on US currency. Roosevelt's on Mt. Rushmore. That's got to count for something.

The quotes you referenced actually don't support your position at all.


Nothing in Jefferson's quotes indicated that he didn't believe in Christ or Christianity, only that he lamented the manner in which some chose to express it.  

Same with the others.  

Is that really any surprise considering that this country was first populated (white populated) by refugees from religious persecution?  

I think you confused my position (in the third party thread I am referencing here). That is probably my fault, since it may be unclear as to the context of that post. Basically jad was implying that our founding fathers wanted us to be a Christian nation.

Perhaps it is clearer if I presented the previous two posts in the exchange between jad and I.

When social, moral-value type issues take a back seat, or we let go of them and stop fighting for them....the effects are much longer lasting, and honestly, nearly impossible to reverse.  Once the Bible was taken out of schools, do you really ever seeing it making it's way back in?  No way, that ship has sailed, it's a thing of the past...we're no longer a Christian nation, so the leaders of the left have declared.  From a moral-value stance, we continue to erode.  If we continue to keep God and Biblical influence locked inside the church, society will continue to slide.  If we keep those things locked up inside the church, it won't be long before that's the only place you find what we used to be.  We'll be a Godless, European-moral nation on this side of the Atlantic.  We will seize to be America.

I'd rather not get too deep in another controversial political thread (especially the most controversial of all topics), but this kind of thinking is the problem, in my opinion.

We were never a "Christian" nation that was intended to have our schools indoctrinate a state religion. To believe that we are is to completely defy and selectively ignore everything our founding fathers stood for.

When a politician starts advocating these kinds of things, or outwardly claims to take the Bible literally, he loses credibility with me.

Now that being said, I can't see how you can look at many of these quotes and not ascertain that those being quoted are deists at best.

When Jefferson says ""The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." " is that his hope or his dread?  There's no context there.  

I believe that the day will come when followers of Jesus are mocked and his worth given little credence (Flying Spaghetti Monster anyone?).  Does that mean I wish for that day or am comforted by it?  No, only that I feel it is inevitable.

While I can't say without equivocation what he meant, I feel like equating Christianity to a religion that is completely dead and used only in the context of literature is pretty clearly a statement on the fictitious nature of the Christian religion. I'm not saying it's impossible that he meant what you said, but I think he was extremely misquoted if that part was left out. That's be like quoting someone as saying "I believe in raping puppies", when the actual quote was "I believe in raping puppies being a punishable crime."

[AUChizad]

If we're quoting Jefferson...here is my favorite:

That was the first one quoted.

[Kaos]

Fair enough, but I thought they were prominent American figures with quotes that would be shocking coming from a President today. Those you mentioned besides Roosevelt all appear on US currency. Roosevelt's on Mt. Rushmore. That's got to count for something.
I think you confused my position (in the third party thread I am referencing here). That is probably my fault, since it may be unclear as to the context of that post. Basically jad was implying that our founding fathers wanted us to be a Christian nation.

Perhaps it is clearer if I presented the previous two posts in the exchange between jad and I.
I'd rather not get too deep in another controversial political thread (especially the most controversial of all topics), but this kind of thinking is the problem, in my opinion.

We were never a "Christian" nation that was intended to have our schools indoctrinate a state religion. To believe that we are is to completely defy and selectively ignore everything our founding fathers stood for.

When a politician starts advocating these kinds of things, or outwardly claims to take the Bible literally, he loses credibility with me.

Now that being said, I can't see how you can look at many of these quotes and not ascertain that those being quoted are deists at best.While I can't say without equivocation what he meant, I feel like equating Christianity to a religion that is completely dead and used only in the context of literature is pretty clearly a statement on the fictitious nature of the Christian religion. I'm not saying it's impossible that he meant what you said, but I think he was extremely misquoted if that part was left out. That's be like quoting someone as saying "I believe in raping puppies", when the actual quote was "I believe in raping puppies being a punishable crime."

Ok.  I can't resist any longer. 

What do you care?  You're going to hell anyway. 

[Aubie16]

That was the first one quoted.

FML

And again that doesn't indicate Jefferson's lack of belief in a deity. 

Never claimed it did.

[CCTAU]

Hell is hot. I smell funny when I burn. Therefore I choose against hell.


The teachings of Jesus are the only teachings of a so-called messiah that were written down within what would be a normal lifetime. (mohammed was not written about until 300 years after his death. Mohammed has a grave) Someone asked about Koresh. Koresh is dead and buried.(Koresh also has a grave) Jesus is not.


If one is to believe in God and believe that the Bible is his word, then the absence of belief in Jesus as the one and only way to heaven is to CHOOSE hell.

A loving God sent a WAY to heaven. He does not send souls to hell, souls choose hell.


It is very easy to NOT believe. That is why so many more souls will be in hell than in heaven. Also the reason for Judaism being so small is that they reject Christ even though they are God's chosen people. They believe in the Bible up to a point and that is hard for people to join in on. If you believe in the Bible, then how can you not believe in all of it? People ask this question and logically choose against Judaism.

Christianity is NOT the belief that Jesus is the son of God.(the demons believe that and tremble- James) It is the belief than Jesus is the son of God and HE is the ONLY way to heaven. We have been redefining the term so much that folks forget the true definition.


Ogre. Hang in there. Living life for him is difficult but rewarding. As you get older, you will yearn for that reward.

[wesfau2]

Also the reason for Judaism being so small is that they reject Christ even though they are God's chosen people. They believe in the Bible up to a point and that is hard for people to join in on. If you believe in the Bible, then how can you not believe in all of it? People ask this question and logically choose against Judaism.

Leaving aside the "why people choose against Judaism" nonsense, the Jews believe in the half of the Bible that was written first.  Their beliefs were pretty well established when all  the new-fangled Jesus hippies started writing down their tales.

[Godfather]

Ok this is tongue in cheek...so because this is a serious topic...please do not take offense.

Agnostic...Isn't this the Prowler of religious views...I believe in God unless I don't.  I don't get it?

[AUChizad]

Leaving aside the "why people choose against Judaism" nonsense, the Jews believe in the half of the Bible that was written first.  Their beliefs were pretty well established when all  the new-fangled Jesus hippies started writing down their tales.

CCTAU, apparently you should be Mormon. You do know the Bible is a trilogy, right?

I know, I know, that Book of Mormon was written much later by different people, and it contains a bunch of far fetched ideas.

So say the Jews about the New Testament.

[AUChizad]

Someone asked about Koresh. Koresh is dead and buried.(Koresh also has a grave) Jesus is not.

I preface this with I'm not trying to offend here, only discuss. I assume if you've read this far, you're open to discussion that could potentially be offensive.

But how do you know unequivocally that Jesus isn't "dead and buried"?

Is it impossible for the disciples to have invaded his tomb? I'm sure you think it to be. I find it to be a more reasonable explanation than him ascending to heaven (while no one was looking).

The difference is, you believe that a 2,000 year old text is infallible. I do not. People believed the earth was flat 2,000 years ago. I think they would believe David Blaine had powers from God too.

[GH2001]

CCTAU, apparently you should be Mormon. You do know the Bible is a trilogy, right?

I know, I know, that Book of Mormon was written much later by different people, and it contains a bunch of far fetched ideas.

So say the Jews about the New Testament.

The mormon leaders (Young, etc) did nothing to prove what they were saying. Someone else did.

And kudos to you and wes for at least meeting us in the middle here. Mud slinging will get the understanding no where whilst constructive debate is always good. Perciate it fellas - good arguments Im seeing in the last 2-3 pages.

[RWS]

I am an agnostic in the fact that I have no idea whether god exists or not. I'm not going to deny the existence of god, just like I am not going to say that he certainly exists. I don't have a clue.

I believe that IF there is an "all knowing, all loving" god, like many religions claim, surely he won't send 2/3rd's of the world to hell for not believing in the correct religion. I have no idea which religion is right, or if any of them are right.

If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.

I am the same way, for the most part. Between being in a fire department, and working at a police department, I see alot of shit; alot of shit dealing with people's lives. I think everything happens for a reason. Sometimes we just don't know for a long time why. If these events are controlled, or guided by, a higher being, I have no idea. I would like to think so. But then again, it could just all be chance and coincidence. I went to church until I was 7 or 8. My parents never made me go, they always gave me the choice. I decided I didn't want to go anymore, so they never forced me to go. I haven't really been back since. I feel that I don't need a church to tell me what to believe, or what I should do. I've read the Bible, and like you, I feel that if the God I have read of does in fact exist, I can't imagine him turning his back on me just because I didn't go to church.

I also do not believe there really is a "right" or "wrong" religion. Believing in this religion will get you to heaven, but believing in that religion will send you to hell. Sorry, I just cannot believe in that. I believe in being a good human being, and that if you follow that general guideline, you will be in good shape.

[wesfau2]

The mormon leaders (Young, etc) did nothing to prove what they were saying. Someone else did.

Could you expound, please?

[RWS]

Ok this is tongue in cheek...so because this is a serious topic...please do not take offense.

Agnostic...Isn't this the Prowler of religious views...I believe in God unless I don't.  I don't get it?

Speaking for myself, I think it's just "undecided". I don't know if there is a God. I would like to think there is. I don't reject the possibility that there is a God either, though. I don't look differently on those that do. I simply live my life in a fashion that I perceive is "right". What do I use as a rulestick of what is "right" or "wrong"? My own judgement, and I guess that's what alot of things come down to.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm unbiased towards either side. If it were a "Prowler view", then there would be some sort of bias to one side or another, I think.

[Vandy Vol]

Agnostic...Isn't this the Prowler of religious views...I believe in God unless I don't.  I don't get it?

Agnosticism, by its definition, is the belief that the truth value of the existence (or non-existence) of a deity is not known or simply unknowable.  It has nothing to do with believing in God unless you don't; it's admitting that you don't currently (or can't ever) know.

[Saniflush]

Agnosticism, by its definition, is the belief that the truth value of the existence (or non-existence) of a deity is not known or simply unknowable.  It has nothing to do with believing in God unless you don't; it's admitting that you don't currently (or can't ever) know.

I guess I understand the currently not knowing  but how can someone be sure that they can't ever know?  Does that make them agnostic toward agnosticism?

[Vandy Vol]

I guess I understand the currently not knowing  but how can someone be sure that they can't ever know?  Does that make them agnostic toward agnosticism?

You can't be sure that you won't ever know.  You can believe that you'll never know, but you won't be 100% sure.  It's somewhat similar to religious individuals having faith in the nature of God.  Many of them admit that they can't know with absolute certainty the nature of God, but rather they just believe it.  Many agnostics believe that our inability to know of God's existence after thousands of years of existence is indicative of our inability to ever know.

[Saniflush]

Fuck it.


The Earth is flat.