Mike Brown: Trayvon Part 2

[Snaggletiger]

So this guy was killed by global warming?


Wait, wrong thread.

[smooth_operator]

I'd like to see you mofos try to take me in.

We don't arrest people, silly. We just kill em.
Well, sometimes plant evidence and then killing. But always killing, always lying. Using  heavy handed tactics that offend people's sensibilities just so that we, selfishly, have a better chance of surviving.

[Token]

Wait wait wait too fast.
You get a call, pull up on scene. You see a guy there with a knife. He starts charging you immediately screaming. If you were going to to try taser (if you had one) you would have to effectively communicate it to your partner, holster your duty weapon, draw the taser, announce taser taser, aim, them fire. Assuming you got all that right, and quickly enough  and the guy didn't fall on his own knife, then what

Well obviously the next response is for you to stand over top of him, and hop on him, securing the hand holding the knife at the very second the tasing is over. Never mind the fact that his body will be fully operational and ready to fight at the exact same time. You just need to make real certain that you grab that arm.

But just as you hop on him, he is able to maneuver his hand holding the knife into a position to cut you, so i tase him again.  Except this time, you are in a full on fight with the guy and by grabbing/laying on him, you have placed yourself in the path of electricity and you are also now being tased. 

Now what?  And also, you only have 5 seconds before the next round is over and crazy knife guy is ready to go again. Not to add any pressure. 

[Token]

I'd like to see you mofos try to take me in.

I'd like to see you walk toward me holding a knife while shouting for me to shoot you.

[AUChizad]

I'm glad you brought that up.
Since you love it so much it will make you happy to hear that there is scientific, empirical data relating to lost or incorrect recall of high stress situations.
And which precautions were those? Should they have fled? Left the evidently deranged armed man with unarmed civilians? Stayed in the car? Or not responded to the call at all knowing full well some genius on the internet will denigrate them from behind the safety of a keyboard  for dealing with the problem.
If you're curious about the taser
A: the taser is not 100% reliable. You would not stand in front of an armed person with a taser.
B: officers are instructed to not tase people armed with edged weapons because on several occasions they did, that person then fell on their own knife. That's a lawsuit that is hard to win.
Your devils advocacy is painfully ignorant and offensive to me. Those guys did what they were supposed to, no question, and I still have to watch you suggest they're murderers. Evidently we are all constantly in danger because cops are walking the streets just waiting to kill. God knows why they haven't killed us all yet.

So the perpetrator potentially falling on their own knife when being subdued is dicier from a legal standpoint than shooting them nine times in the head and chest. Ok.

And my position is far closer to you on this than the vast, vast majority of media and public. At least I'm acknowledging that the guy that ended up dying was clearly provoking the officers and there is plenty of blame to go around STARTING with the guy who was killed.

I'd get your belligerence maybe if I was saying this poor innocent kid did no wrong and the mean ol cops shot him in cold blood. I'm not saying that at all, whether or not if that's what you want to hear from me.

Plenty has been written about it. I can't find one that says the police are 100% in the right and completely absolved of any blame. But keep thinking it's just the insane ramblings of this one know-nothing behind a keyboard.

From the right-wing Libertarian thinktank Reason:
http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/20/was-kajieme-powell-really-holding-high-a

Was Kajieme Powell Really Holding High a Knife When Shot to Death by Police?
Brian Doherty|Aug. 20, 2014 8:08 pm

After St. Louis police shot to death 25-year-old Kajieme Powell yesterday (as mentioned in Elizabeth Nolan Brown's post below)—and apparently for good measure cuffed his corpse, says an eyewitness at the scene of the video below around 2:45—St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson told the press that he was a clear and present danger to the officers, having, as the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported, "pulled out a knife and came at the officers, gripping and holding it high, Dotson said." The Huffington Post reported Dotson as saying the knife was in an "overhand grip."

This cell phone video—alas from pretty far away—does not look to me like Powell was raising his arms. Nor does it show any obvious sign that I can see of a knife at all, but I can't be sure of that. But the position of his arms seems clear enough to me when the shots that killed him begin, around 1:35 or so of the video.

The video. Yes, it's disturbing

Plenty more has been written about it. Take your pick.

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2014/08/video-kajieme-powell-killing-differs-from-police-description

http://www.salon.com/2014/08/21/cell_phone_video_appears_to_contradict_officer_accounts_in_kajieme_powell_killing/

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/20/6051431/did-the-st-louis-police-have-to-shoot-kajieme-powell

This is the one that perhaps vocalizes my feelings about it better than I apparently did in this thread.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/the-killing-of-kajieme-powell/378899/

The Killing of Kajieme Powell and How It Divides Americans
The mentally disturbed man was shot to death by St. Louis law-enforcement officers after walking toward them with a knife. Video of the incident has sparked debate about the police's reaction.
CONOR FRIEDERSDORFAUG 21 2014, 9:04 AM ET

The police officers who shot and killed Kajieme Powell, 25, in St. Louis, Missouri, on Tuesday did so while being recorded by a man with a cell phone camera. St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson and police union officials say the video is exculpatory and that the two officers on the scene followed proper protocol. Many who've watched the shooting grant that the police were put in a difficult, volatile, potentially deadly situation, but still feel that their actions were wrongheaded. The footage certain to be debated in coming days begins at the 1:20 mark. Be forewarned that the video shows a man being shot repeatedly and killed. Due to its disturbing nature some readers may prefer to skip watching it entirely.


What I see in this video (as well as in an even clearer version that CNN somehow obtained) is a man almost certainly suffering from mental illness who deliberately provokes these police officers, putting them in a terrible, unfair position that will probably haunt them forever—and police officers who immediately played into the orchestrated confrontation that the seemingly unstable man created. I also see an incident that contradicts what Police Chief Sam Dotson described to onlookers at the scene, as reported by the St. Louis Dispatch. The discrepancy comes after police arrive and start giving Powell orders...

...but he became more agitated and walked toward them, reaching for his waistband. Witnesses told police the man was yelling, “Shoot me, kill me now,” during the encounter, Dotson said. The officers drew their weapons and ordered Powell to stop. He did stop, but then pulled out a knife and came at the officers, gripping and holding it high, Dotson said. They ordered him to stop and drop the knife. When he got within 2 or 3 feet of the officers, they fired, killing Powell.

Was Powell holding a knife high as he approached the police officers? I don't see that. It looks to me as though his arms remain low at his sides, and that detail doesn't appear in the police report. The cause of this disparity isn't clear, but the position of the knife doesn't significantly change how much of a threat it posed, anyways.

When I first watched the video, I wanted the officers to back up to buy time as the man slowly approached. A police training video helped me to better understand the mindset of the officers, given the information that they've likely been given about research into the distance at which a man with a knife is dangerous.

With that in mind, it seems to me that the initial set-up chosen by the police officers was the bigger problem. The man with the knife wasn't anywhere near other onlookers and perhaps could've been calmed or incapacitated with less than lethal force had the officers given themselves more space and time. If they had it do to over, would they have parked farther away, or stood on the other side of their vehicle while engaging the man? Would they assert themselves less confrontationally? (On the other hand, would you or I do any better in their place?)

"It is easy to criticize," Ezra Klein writes. "It is easy to watch a cell phone video and think of all the ways it could have gone differently. It is easy to forget that the police saw a mentally unbalanced man with a knife advancing on them. It is easy to forget that 20 seconds only takes 20 seconds. It is easy to forget that police get scared. It is easy not to ask yourself what you might have done if you had a gun and a man came at you with a knife." All true. "But there is still something wrong with that video," he adds, doing his best to articulate specific objections that I share:

​The police arrive and instantly escalate the situation... Powell looks sick more than he looks dangerous. But the police draw their weapons as soon as they exit their car... They don't seem to know how to stop Powell, save for using deadly force. But all Powell had was a steak knife. If the police had been in their car, with the windows rolled up, he could have done little to hurt them...

...Even when he advances on police, he walks, rather than runs... He swings his arms normally, rather than entering into a fighting stance. They begin yelling at him to stop. And when they begin shooting, they shoot to kill—even continuing to shoot when Powell is motionless on the ground. There is no warning shot, even. It does not seem like it should be so easy to take a life.

That's how I felt, too.

A police officer might retort that law enforcement shouldn't be obligated to take on any extra risk to their own lives in a dangerous situation wholly and needlessly created by a person menacing them. A citizen deliberately baiting police with a deadly weapon cannot expect restraint. Even a small knife can be deadly.

In the abstract, I can't disagree with those principles—and if questionable police killings were confined to such circumstances, there'd be less cause than now to complain about overzealous law enforcement. Yet watching this video, it seems certain in hindsight that the threat could've been stopped with force short of at least nine and as many as 12 gunshots; and again, if they'd kept more initial distance between themselves and a man they knew to have a knife before they even arrived, perhaps no deadly threat would've materialized. If they'd stood well back and engaged, perhaps Powell would've kept coming with a knife until stopped.

But they didn't even attempt that strategy. (As Elizabeth Brown notes, deadly interactions with the mentally ill happen a lot, and failure to even try deescalating is often a factor.) I suspect that Klein is right when he says that in this case, despite clear video evidence of what happened, "what the police believe to be the right thing and what the people they serve believe to be the right thing may be very different."

Perhaps highlighting different reactions will at least clarify how different Americans feel about the same incident. If nothing else, a gulf in public opinion almost certainly undermines the effectiveness of police departments that depend on community support. With that in mind, here are some illuminating reactions to the killing.

@NelsonEmpowered
R.I.P Kajieme Powell, I wish he didn't go out like that, he literally sacrificed his life to expose the insensitivity of police towards us.
2:06 AM - 21 Aug 2014

A Gawker commenter identifying himself as a police officer writes:

People expect police officers to be individuals of outstanding moral fiber, with remarkable intelligence, able to know and articulate city/county ordinances, state statutes, and court decision, and also have no prejudices. The problem is that most places in America are cutting police staff, cutting wages, stopping pay raises, and attacking officers pension. The person who meets those above qualifications can most likely find a much less stressful job, with much better benefits and salary. You get what you pay for. If you want a highly professional, intelligent police force, you need to compensate as such.

I mention all of these things because in this shooting, you have officers arriving to a clearly disturbed person. This person arms themselves with a knife, and indicates that he wants to die. The problem is that logic will usually not work with someone in this state. He forces the officers hands, and unfortunately, he is killed. Instead of asking why officers had to shoot him, ask where his family/friends were? Did they recognize the signs of mental illness and ignore it? Did they attempt to get him help and the horrible mental health system we have here fail him? Officers have a duty to protect and serve, but its not the individual for whom they do this, but society.

A disturbed man with a knife poses a serious danger to all of the rest of the citizens, and the officers had to stop that threat.

Again, though, did they have to immediately put themselves in such close proximity to a man with a knife? Couldn't they have tried to talk him down if they'd shouted from a distance rather than immediately getting close with guns drawn?

Blogger Chris Connelly believes the St. Louis police could learn something from their British analogs:

I suspect the protocol in Britain would be to park at a relatively distance, order civilians to get back, call for back-up and specialist assistance, while monitoring to ensure that Mr. Powell poses no threat to himself or anybody else. What caused the situation to escalate to the point that the police felt so threatened that they needed to open fire in a mentally ill man carrying a knife at his side was the arrival of the police. There is a serious problem in how US police perceive and deal with "threats." Mentally-ill people, even ones with knives, are primarily a threat to themselves.
 
I know that American police face different risks than British ones, and that gun violence is higher... so let's park the gun issue and look at the threat from knives on its own. In 2013 armed police were deployed in the UK about 12,000 times. They fired 3 shots and killed nobody. I don't know how many of those incidents involved knives, but I suspect it was more than one. The St. Louis P.D. bested that in 15 seconds when they fired 9 bullets into Mr. Powell. American gun enthusiasts and police officers always say "you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to neutralize the threat." So do British police, and they successfully neutralize the threat with both fewer shots fired and fewer dead citizens. "But the British armed police are top marksmen!" is usually another reply.
 
Well... that's an argument for better firearms training of US officers instead of an excuse for their poor accuracy...
 
The most disturbing aspect of this for me is that the police fired several bullets into Kajieme Powell's body while he lay wounded on the ground, and yet they apparently wanted this video released as it was "exculpatory." There exists a very deep chasm between what the Police view as justified and what, I think, most reasonable citizens would.  In a democratic country where the rule of law exists in such a difference of opinion the difference must always be settled on the side of the people, who are sovereign. In the United States it seems to be settled far too frequently, to put it at its lowest, on the side of the Police.

Said a Reddit commenter:

This is the type of thing that happens when a cop fails to act appropriately in an extremely dangerous situation. [That, too, is a disturbing video of a shootout between a police officer and a mentally ill Vietnam veteran. But there's no need to watch beyond where the shooting starts to see the commenter's point.]

A Tumblr author writes:

I’m posting this for anyone who has ever said “not all cops”. For anyone who doesn’t think racism, anti-blackness, or police brutality are real issues. I’m posting this for everyone who immediately says “but let’s wait for all the facts first” or “they probably deserved it” when ever they hear about innocent lives being taken at the hands of police officers. I’m posting this for anyone who thinks “it was just another dumbass kid” or “stop making such a big deal out of these things” or “omg it’s not about race”. I’m posting this for anyone who spent even 1 millisecond of these past 11 days trying to justify the murder of Mike Brown. I dare you to try and justify the murder of this young man.

Rest in peace Kajieme Powell

Said another on the same platform:

 The officers both exited the vehicle with pistols drawn on a shoplifting call, upon seeing a man without a drawn weapon walking around on a sidewalk. There were people watching further down the block, but nobody in immediate proximity. They were not overwhelmed; two other officers were there within 60 seconds of the shooting, and four within 90 seconds; it was a flood of police.

I’ve seen police respond to erratic-behaviour calls of people with far bigger knives than this guy had. I’ve seen police respond to shoplifting calls. I’ve seen police respond to assault calls, to knife-fight-in-progress calls, to armed-and-presumed-dangerous calls… and I have not seen a response like this. There was no attempt to talk him down; there was no attempt to do anything other than bark orders for 10 seconds or so, then unload.

To me, it looks like they went in with the assumption they’d be shooting this man down, and did so, 14 seconds after exiting their vehicle. They went in with a plan - if you can call it that - of immediate compliance, or death. And they went with death.

Here's a third Tumblr author:

...what makes it worse is he was murdered 4 miles away from where Michael Brown was murdered. it’s demoralizing to me. because I want justice, I want equality, but deep down I know that we’ll never achieve it. it’s all a system, & for the people who run the system; there’s no money in equality. there’s no power if everyone is equal. so because of my skin, I’m preordained to be a target. preordained to be subjected to hate from those with the same pigment as the folks who run the system. maybe I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but i’m just venting… go watch the video.
And a fourth:

Oh god yeah I did.  That made me nearly throw up.  And I made the mistake of watching the video and it was devastating.  They don’t even try to treat us like people.  They treat us like we’re rabid animals that need to be put down for “public safety”, but some asshole with a trunk full of guns can cause all sorts of mayhem and get gently placed in the back of a squad car because he’s white.  The fact that Kajieme Powell could have been a person with mental illness and they showed up with guns drawn, THEN handcuffed him after he was killed…that horrified me.   

My brother is Autistic, and he has issues with personal contact and he dislikes when people speak to him in a certain octave, it really throws him off.  He’s also tall.  I’m scared to death that people would shoot him like that, because black people with mental illness or disabilities don’t get the support systems or the treatment that white men screaming the same things with guns in their hands get. 

The fact that people handle school shooters with kid gloves because they “might” have mental illness but shoot a black person down within 30 seconds of encountering him, and people just call him a “knife wielding suspect” and didn’t harm anyone?  That is disgusting.   

Here's another Redditor:

They did not empty their clips. They shot 4-5 rounds in a very short period of time each. Their mags carry about 11 rounds so they actually stopped firing right when they were supposed to.

If you want to argue 9-10x is a lot then you're thinking from your perspective not theirs. In that short span of time the officers do not have time to check with one another for who fired where, what hit, and how many times they each fired. They fired until he fell.

So, why did they fire after he fell? Adrenaline. That man was prepared for them, probably working up a ton of adrenaline. Any scenario like that has adrenaline pumping on both sides. They didn't know how many bullets were fired or how many hit and where they hit. They also didn't know if he'd get up and attack them. It's a gray area but they put 2-3 rounds in him when he hit the ground because of 2 reasons....

1: They thought he was a threat who might get up.
2: It happened so fast it took their mind a second to come out of the haze and go "whoa, whoa he's down, stop".
The officers stopping when they did (when most would simply unload) shows restraint as opposed to blood lust or getting lost in the moment. You have to remember, officers are people too. They have families, homes to return to, and when they get afraid for their lives they'll act in defense of it just like anyone else would. Training in this situation helped them stop firing but in reality you cannot train yourself for the intense emotions those two officers felt when they shot that man.

And two more besides:



And a final Twitter reaction:

@Atencio
The Kajieme Powell murder makes me sick. I'm angry and feel like I have nowhere to direct that energy in order to foster positive change.p

That isn't the full spectrum of arguments, reactions, and emotions, but it reflects the very different ways various people of good will are responding to the same footage.

[Token]

So the officers should have stayed in their vehicle, with the windows rolled up, where the crazy knife guy couldn't cut them? 

Goddamn this nation is full of pussies who I now 100% believe have never been in a fight.  Fuck this thread.

[WiregrassTiger]

I'd like to see you walk toward me holding a knife while shouting for me to shoot you.

When I come after you, which is just a matter of time, you will never know what hit you.

[Snaggletiger]

When I come after you, which is just a matter of time, you will never know what hit you.

Werrd.  I'ma kill a cop. 

Is it true that the guy without a shirt on always gets arrested?  It happens on COPS every time.

[WiregrassTiger]

Werrd.  I'ma kill a cop. 

Is it true that the guy without a shirt on always gets arrested?  It happens on COPS every time.

I don't wear shirts and the mofos ain't manned up to get me yet. And won't.

[dallaswareagle]

So the officers should have stayed in their vehicle, with the windows rolled up, where the crazy knife guy couldn't cut them? 

Goddamn this nation is full of pussies who I now 100% believe have never been in a fight.  Fuck this thread.

Yes they should have, then because he was fucking crazy and went bat-shit and started going after regular folks who had no defense, he could have killed 3 or 4 of them before getting shot. Cops wrong again. 


And what most folks will never get. In a deadly force situation there is no such thing as aiming to wound. Your scared, you have a weapon in your hand, your confronting someone who also has a weapon. Your taught that if you have to shoot, shoot to kill.

Warning shot-Crock of shit-The pistols drawn were his warning. And that warning shot: That round has to end up somewhere. What goes up must come down. Maybe on a little girl a couple of streets over.

[smooth_operator]

Look Chad, I've been using hyperbole, humor and satire to try to get you to look at the absurdity of what you're asking. I'll lay this out as best I can:
 A lot of those comments are from intelligent, caring people. People who want the world to be a better place. I do too. I bet those cops do too. They're also viewing that video, probably over and over to get all the detail they pointed out, in the perfect 20/20 of hindsight. Those cops didn't get that. They had a split second, under extreme stress you cannot understand, to make a life or death decison. Yes, they chose their own life. You can what if a situation all day. What if they had held back? Maybe the deceased grabs a nearby gawker and takes himself a hostage? Backs that hostage into a nearby business and gets to stabbin? Then who's fault is it?
 The post about what British police might and might not do does not apply. The British police were not there, thus we don't know what they would do. If anyone feel so strongly that their justice system is superior I invite them to go.
And yes. As I understand it you are extremely liable for whatever happens the moment after you taser someone. Yes, as I understand it, in the specific instance I was thinking of the cops got sued and lost. No, I don't agree but no one cares.
Yes I wish I had a phaser I could set to stun. (And yeah, I probably would abuse the shoot out of that) but a taser is not a magic gun. They're unreliable, they're flawed and they save the shoot out of lives applied correctly.
Is mental health a problem in America? Yes. The way Alabama handles it, by the way, is horrifying and causes deaths all the time. Deputies pick up the people, take them to be evaluated. After evaluation they are transported to a facility for a month while the workers there get the mentally ill person's medication adjusted. Then they release them. Then the cycle repeats a month later when they go off the meds. I wish it were better.

The problem with all these wishes and what ifs is they aren't reality. In reality nothing goes totally right the first time at full speed. shoot, watch a football game to understand that. Guys spend entire YEARS designing and practicing plays that work in SPECIFIC SITUATIONS and more often than not they don't work as designed. Your comment about 100% right was perfect because no one is 100% right in the real world. No one thinks fast enough to cover all the what ifs. The percentages go down, markedly, as stress goes up. Law is a high stakes game, and its a game that your only hope is to be good enough.Those men..those heroes, the choices they made.. It was good enough Chad. Good enough that no one but the armed maniac got hurt. Good enough that they made it home. Good enough that there's not been rioting in the streets. And on those streets there's nothing much better than good enough.

The truth is, nobody that isn't mentally ill wants to kill anyone. The truth is, to get in a situation where you are paid not much more than minimum wage to risk your life you have to run through a gamut of background checks and psychological tests designed by experts to pick out just the kind of racist, or sociopathic killers these people seem to be insisting the average cop is. The truth is being a cop is just full of hard choices. And hard choices leave ugly results.

[WiregrassTiger]

I wonder who ended up getting the sodas.

[The Prowler]

Well obviously the next response is for you to stand over top of him, and hop on him, securing the hand holding the knife at the very second the tasing is over. Never mind the fact that his body will be fully operational and ready to fight at the exact same time. You just need to make real certain that you grab that arm.

But just as you hop on him, he is able to maneuver his hand holding the knife into a position to cut you, so i tase him again.  Except this time, you are in a full on fight with the guy and by grabbing/laying on him, you have placed yourself in the path of electricity and you are also now being tased. 

Now what?  And also, you only have 5 seconds before the next round is over and crazy knife guy is ready to go again. Not to add any pressure.

Easy, when you go to subdue him, first put him in a choke hold...no wait, that's illegal...nevermind...Empty your clip on him, because you never know, the guy could be a Cheetah and close the 100 foot gap within a second. Yup, shoot to kill...then handcuff him, because you never know, the guy could be a Zombie or Michael Myers and spring back to life.

[jmar]

Easy, when you go to subdue him, first put him in a choke hold...no wait, that's illegal...nevermind...Empty your clip on him, because you never know, the guy could be a Cheetah and close the 100 foot gap within a second. Yup, shoot to kill...then handcuff him, because you never know, the guy could be a Zombie or Michael Myers and spring back to life.

This is true because in 28 Days the lead zombie was the spitting image of Charles Barkley who appeared to be thinking for those that followed... like a cunning flesh-eater that can run and jump and binge drink and gamble and whore hop and shit. Charles employed many deadly props throughout this flick and it was so very bad that toward the ending I was hoping to see him pick up a golf club and savagely beat Dennis Hopper to death rather than the resulting explosion.

There is no shoot to wound and the proper use of a PR-24 (see Rodney King clubbing) might have helped diffuse the situation. Some chipped bones and/or a badly bruised sternum? PROBABLY!  But dead? NO.
And thanks to the debacle in L.A. that weapon was all but retired. 


   

[The Prowler]

This is true because in 28 Days the lead zombie was the spitting image of Charles Barkley who appeared to be thinking for those that followed... like a cunning flesh-eater that can run and jump and binge drink and gamble and whore hop and shit. Charles employed many deadly props throughout this flick and it was so very bad that toward the ending I was hoping to see him pick up a golf club and savagely beat Dennis Hopper to death rather than the resulting explosion.

There is no shoot to wound and the proper use of a PR-24 (see Rodney King clubbing) might have helped diffuse the situation. Some chipped bones and/or a badly bruised sternum? PROBABLY!  But dead? NO.
And thanks to the debacle in L.A. that weapon was all but retired. 


 

Why not just use a 50 Cal Machine Gun...well you might have to worry about the people a mile away getting hit, ahhh, who cares...mow them down too, they all probably had a knife in their hands. Because apparently the Police Department doesn't teach hand to hand combat or how to disarm a civilian brandishing a knife.

[bgreene]

Easy, when you go to subdue him, first put him in a choke hold...no wait, that's illegal...nevermind...Empty your clip on him, because you never know, the guy could be a Cheetah and close the 100 foot gap within a second. Yup, shoot to kill...then handcuff him, because you never know, the guy could be a Zombie or Michael Myers and spring back to life.

As a law enforcement officer, and as someone that trains law enforcement officers, I will answer your zombie remark.  Most all law enforcement officers are NOT doctors, and because they are not, they can neither say he is officially dead or alive.  Therefore you cuff him because he may in fact still be alive, and if he is, he is cuffed and no longer is a threat to you or anyone else.  As having been in a life or death situation on the job, it pissed me off that some people that I worked with at the time wanted to say that they would have done this or done that.  Eat a bag of smashed a**holes!!  Unless you are in that situation you have no idea what you would do.  All you know at the time of the incident is that what seems like an eternity of time is really a split second.  All you can do is what you have been trained to do and wait until your back-up or whoever you work with can get there to help you out.  I honestly hope that none of you are ever in that situation to have to make that shoot don't shoot decision.  And if you are then I hope you are prepared.

[smooth_operator]

Why not just use a 50 Cal Machine Gun...well you might have to worry about the people a mile away getting hit, ahhh, who cares...mow them down too, they all probably had a knife in their hands. Because apparently the Police Department doesn't teach hand to hand combat or how to disarm a civilian brandishing a knife.

Great idea, I was looking for a way to kill more people.

[jmar]

As a law enforcement officer, and as someone that trains law enforcement officers, I will answer your zombie remark.  Most all law enforcement officers are NOT doctors, and because they are not, they can neither say he is officially dead or alive.  Therefore you cuff him because he may in fact still be alive, and if he is, he is cuffed and no longer is a threat to you or anyone else.  As having been in a life or death situation on the job, it pissed me off that some people that I worked with at the time wanted to say that they would have done this or done that.  Eat a bag of smashed a**holes!!  Unless you are in that situation you have no idea what you would do.  All you know at the time of the incident is that what seems like an eternity of time is really a split second.  All you can do is what you have been trained to do and wait until your back-up or whoever you work with can get there to help you out.  I honestly hope that none of you are ever in that situation to have to make that shoot don't shoot decision.  And if you are then I hope you are prepared.

Very true and I am certified myself although I backed off that career move in the early nineties. No person trained or not knows for sure how they will react in a pressurized situation especially at close range nor if they can pull the trigger on another human being in an instance. And in such a situation one might also fire unintentionally simply by fingering the trigger in panic, yes, even the most seasoned officer.

My statement about the PR-24 was was in hindsight where several officers could subdue a threat by surrounding the person if we imagine a similar situation where no firearms are present.

[bgreene]

Why not just use a 50 Cal Machine Gun...well you might have to worry about the people a mile away getting hit, ahhh, who cares...mow them down too, they all probably had a knife in their hands. Because apparently the Police Department doesn't teach hand to hand combat or how to disarm a civilian brandishing a knife.

They do, it's called lethal force.

[jmar]

A flame thrower would deter most knife wielders. Worked in the Pacific!




But if you really want the best option, it's to simply soft bump the motherfucker (ala Tony Stewart) The bumpee has a decent chance of survival and the bumper hangs out with pay for two or three weeeks until things cool down.