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Why?

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Re: Why?
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2014, 10:06:33 AM »
Truth is, white people were in fact treated badly by other white people because of the particular ethnicity they belonged to. Very badly. A shit ton of Italians and Irish were treated like garbage by the aristocratic "mayflower blood" plantation types in charge. They were discriminated against, treated as 2nd class, subhuman and it was all public and "legal".

And no it doesn't justify the treatment of any other group badly.  It was all wrong. And also in the past.

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GH2001

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Re: Why?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2014, 10:14:26 AM »
You see this knife? I'm gonna teach you to speak English with this fucking knife!

Bill Cutting was a bad bad dude.
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WDE

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Re: Why?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2014, 10:14:34 AM »
It's easy to say that it's all in the past when you haven't been sitting in jail for a crime you didn't commit.  Of the 312 post-conviction exonerations in the U.S. (which are still adding up, BTW), the average served time was 14 years.

Granted, if you've already been executed, then there's nothing that can be done for the defendant.  But I don't know that this doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try to bring peace to the remaining family and friends by righting a wrong.  Would you want your father to go down in judicial history as a rapist if you have reason to believe he was wrongly convicted?  If you had the legal ability to challenge his conviction, would you agree with others when they tell you, "Man...it's all in the past.  Just stop trying to stir the pot and wasting taxpayer dollars."

And you would do all of this out of the goodness of your heart, no pay involved?

Fame and money. If this had been a white boy, it would never even be considered. Of course, according to most easily influenced people, no white people were ever treated poorly.

The article says all evidence has been lost. But now, someone says they remember it differently? Would that open a new case for anyone else? No. But this case involves a minority. So it has to be handled carefully.

And therein lies the issue that some of us are addressing. If there is hard evidence that this was truly a travesty, then show it and by all means, set it right.
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Vandy Vol

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Re: Why?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2014, 10:17:36 AM »
If everyone is dead from when it happened, then yes I say let it go. There is no way humanity can retroactively vindicate every victim that may or may not have ever existed. It's impossible. That's a huge slippery slope.

It's different if it's a current case and people are alive. And I really don't think this case is for all the right reasons. I can understand with the Medger Evers case because certain accused assailants were still alive. And in that case it worked because of that and new technology.

In this case, nothing will inherently change no matter the outcome.

So if your father were convicted of rape and murder, and executed subsequent to this conviction, yet you knew or had reason to believe he was wrongly convicted, you'd let it go?

That's fine if you would, but would you deny your mother or siblings the ability to bring a legal challenge simply because it's in the past and he's been executed?

Some people might let it go, but others want vindication for their family and friends, even if they're deceased.  And there exists a legal ability for them to request new trials or appeals in order to do so.  I don't see what's wrong with wanting to clear someone's name for posterity's sake.
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War Eagle!!!

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Re: Why?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2014, 10:27:46 AM »

Of course, according to most easily influenced people, no white people were ever treated poorly.


Another ridiculous comment...
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WiregrassTiger

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Re: Why?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2014, 10:32:57 AM »
It's easy to say that it's all in the past when you haven't been sitting in jail for a crime you didn't commit.  Of the 312 post-conviction exonerations in the U.S. (which are still adding up, BTW), the average served time was 14 years.

Granted, if you've already been executed, then there's nothing that can be done for the defendant.  But I don't know that this doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try to bring peace to the remaining family and friends by righting a wrong.  Would you want your father to go down in judicial history as a rapist if you have reason to believe he was wrongly convicted?  If you had the legal ability to challenge his conviction, would you agree with others when they tell you, "Man...it's all in the past.  Just stop trying to stir the pot and wasting taxpayer dollars."
I am ok with the "justice seeking" trials if the loser pays ALL legal costs--including reimbursing taxpayers. That won't happen and neither should this trial based on what I read in this article. The fact that the kid was 14 and black, the victims were little white girls and the murders occurred during the Jim Crow era should not be the only justification for a retrial. I suspect that it is.
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Token

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Re: Why?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2014, 10:33:50 AM »
Wait.  So the 14 year old kid that was executed was a father already?
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Why?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2014, 10:36:04 AM »
And you would do all of this out of the goodness of your heart, no pay involved?

Fame and money. If this had been a white boy, it would never even be considered. Of course, according to most easily influenced people, no white people were ever treated poorly.

The guy taking on the case is the son of South Carolina's first black chief justice.  Something tells me he has a chip on his shoulder for wanting to right wrongs against blacks.  Whatever his motivations, however, that doesn't affect whether this case has a leg to stand on.  Whatever the race of the defendant, that doesn't affect whether this case has a leg to stand on.  It sounds like you're jumping to a lot of conclusions based on race, and consistently defending these conclusions based on race, but you're not really addressing the case itself.  You seem to be playing the race card just as much as you accuse them of doing so.

But as long as we're talking about race, of the 312 post-conviction exonerations I mentioned earlier, 70% were minorities.  I don't think anyone is arguing that white people are never treated poorly, but as WE!!! mentioned earlier, it's slightly absurd to act as if just as many whites were treated poorly in comparison to minorities.  Especially when you're talking about the Jim Crow era or earlier.

As far as this never happening for white people?  Look up David Wayne Spence, Cameron Todd Willingham, Claude Jones, Jesse Tafero, Ellis Wayne Felker, etc.  Again, you're playing the race card by suggesting the system caters to minority appeals only, when in reality, many whites have been exonerated as well.  And those mentioned above?  Exonerated post-execution.


The article says all evidence has been lost. But now, someone says they remember it differently? Would that open a new case for anyone else? No. But this case involves a minority. So it has to be handled carefully.

And therein lies the issue that some of us are addressing. If there is hard evidence that this was truly a travesty, then show it and by all means, set it right.

No, not all of the evidence has been lost, and the article acknowledges this.  The autopsy report still exists, as a pathologist is indicating that he can refute the findings.  Additionally, there are witnesses and news reports that acknowledge the fact that the prosecution failed to properly admit evidence it claimed would show Stinney's guilt.

Again, I'm not saying there is a ton of evidence and that this is a slam dunk case, but there are clearly reasonable grounds for an appeal.  Whatever the reason for bringing this legal challenge, those grounds have to at least be considered, regardless of the defendant's race or the motivations of his representatives for bringing the case.

If they filed a motion that just said, "He black, reconsider dis," then yeah, you'd have an argument that this is solely based on race and should be promptly denied.  But when an autopsy report is being challenged, the handling of evidence is being challenged, the manner in which the defendant was interrogated is being challenged, and there are witnesses who state that the defendant had an alibi?  Then there's evidence to be reviewed.  And you can judge the credibility of that evidence all you want, but in our legal system, that's left up to the jury to decide as the trier of fact.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Why?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2014, 10:36:29 AM »
Wait.  So the 14 year old kid that was executed was a father already?

No...I was only using a father as an example of someone who is a family member.
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CCTAU

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Re: Why?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2014, 10:38:35 AM »
Another ridiculous comment...

Of course. That is why this is national news. With all of the atrocities that have occurred in our history, we get bombarded with those that involve the south and racism the most.

Ask the rest of the nation what they think of the south. Their view is formed through instances like this. While something bad has happened to just about every race, here in the last 40 years, its only an atrocity if it involves a minority.

So I guess until you can prove that most people do not think this way, it is not as ridiculous as it sounds. 
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Vandy Vol

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Re: Why?
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2014, 10:41:04 AM »
I am ok with the "justice seeking" trials if the loser pays ALL legal costs--including reimbursing taxpayers. That won't happen and neither should this trial based on what I read in this article.

That's slightly problematic.  When you make the court system accessible to only those who have the money required for bringing a case, then you're not promoting justice for all.  You can never be guaranteed that you will win, even if you have a legitimate case, so you'd be deterring a lot of people from filing legitimate suits.

However, if the court finds that it was a frivolous suit, then they can and do often assess costs against the loser who brought the frivolous suit.  But again, you can't really penalize people for bringing a legitimate case that just happens to lose.


The fact that the kid was 14 and black, the victims were little white girls and the murders occurred during the Jim Crow era should not be the only justification for a retrial. I suspect that it is.

Maybe, maybe not, but the article indicates there is evidence to be heard.  Unless they've fabricated this evidence, it should have a shot at being reviewed, despite the reason for bringing the evidence.  As mentioned before, it's ultimately up to the jury as trier of fact to determine whether that evidence is legitimate, and whether it warrants exoneration.
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GH2001

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Re: Why?
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2014, 10:42:59 AM »
So if your father were convicted of rape and murder, and executed subsequent to this conviction, yet you knew or had reason to believe he was wrongly convicted, you'd let it go?

That's fine if you would, but would you deny your mother or siblings the ability to bring a legal challenge simply because it's in the past and he's been executed?

Some people might let it go, but others want vindication for their family and friends, even if they're deceased.  And there exists a legal ability for them to request new trials or appeals in order to do so.  I don't see what's wrong with wanting to clear someone's name for posterity's sake.

It really just depends on the viability of the doubt. Some people will just be in denial a loved one did anything wrong. I would expect the cases where someone was wrongly convicted are the exception not the rule. I wouldn't want to waste tax payer money and a courts time for something where someone had a feeling or a hunch. They would need to bring serious proof that hasn't been uncovered before in a previous case. And it would need to be overwhelming. These are just so far and few. For every 100 that get brought up you'd have a handful where the people had a real case. That's the slippery slope.
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CCTAU

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Re: Why?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2014, 10:43:14 AM »
I am ok with the "justice seeking" trials if the loser pays ALL legal costs--including reimbursing taxpayers. That won't happen and neither should this trial based on what I read in this article. The fact that the kid was 14 and black, the victims were little white girls and the murders occurred during the Jim Crow era should not be the only justification for a retrial. I suspect that it is.

This sums it up better than I have.

If it truly is for justice, by all means pursue it.

But we have seen too many things like this pursued for the wrong reasons.

The reason this case is gettng a lot of attention is from the "Jim Crow" connection stated above.


This type of thing creates spaghetti courts.

Throw what you can at the courts and see what sticks. Of course no lawyer wants any form of loser pay in this environment.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2014, 10:49:18 AM by CCTAU »
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Five statements of WISDOM
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealth out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.

Godfather

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Re: Why?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2014, 10:51:45 AM »
Wait.  So the 14 year old kid that was executed was a father already?
See though if you had been around back then you would have just shot him on site, saved the taxpayers a lot of money.
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Saniflush

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Re: Why?
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2014, 10:53:25 AM »
That's slightly problematic.  When you make the court system accessible to only those who have the money required for bringing a case, then you're not promoting justice for all.  You can never be guaranteed that you will win, even if you have a legitimate case, so you'd be deterring a lot of people from filing legitimate suits.

However, if the court finds that it was a frivolous suit, then they can and do often assess costs against the loser who brought the frivolous suit.  But again, you can't really penalize people for bringing a legitimate case that just happens to lose.


Maybe, maybe not, but the article indicates there is evidence to be heard.  Unless they've fabricated this evidence, it should have a shot at being reviewed, despite the reason for bringing the evidence.  As mentioned before, it's ultimately up to the jury as trier of fact to determine whether that evidence is legitimate, and whether it warrants exoneration.

How about we make the losing lieyer pay the costs?  Bet that would cut out some sleepless nights and caring.
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GH2001

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Re: Why?
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2014, 10:53:58 AM »
See though if you had been around back then you would have just shot him on site, saved the taxpayers a lot of money.

Jack Boot bastage
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Re: Why?
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2014, 11:26:49 AM »
Wait.  So the 14 year old kid that was executed was a father already?

Well...he was black...
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War Eagle!!!

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Re: Why?
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2014, 11:28:47 AM »
This sums it up better than I have.

If it truly is for justice, by all means pursue it.

But we have seen too many things like this pursued for the wrong reasons.

The reason this case is gettng a lot of attention is from the "Jim Crow" connection stated above.


This type of thing creates spaghetti courts.

Throw what you can at the courts and see what sticks. Of course no lawyer wants any form of loser pay in this environment.

Agreed.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Why?
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2014, 11:30:35 AM »
It really just depends on the viability of the doubt. Some people will just be in denial a loved one did anything wrong. I would expect the cases where someone was wrongly convicted are the exception not the rule. I wouldn't want to waste tax payer money and a courts time for something where someone had a feeling or a hunch. They would need to bring serious proof that hasn't been uncovered before in a previous case. And it would need to be overwhelming. These are just so far and few. For every 100 that get brought up you'd have a handful where the people had a real case. That's the slippery slope.

And our legal system is set up so as to examine the viability of the doubt.  If you're just in denial and submit an appeal or request for a new trial with absolutely no new evidence or no legal challenges regarding how evidence was previously treated, then it will be rejected.  But if you are bringing new evidence or new legal challenges, then it should at least be considered.  And that's what our legal system is there for.

As far as the wrongful convictions being far and few, I don't think that should have any bearing as to whether a case is reviewed.  Each instance should be viewed based on its own merits, and not based on the statistical probability of a wrongful conviction.

I'm not advocating that every request for a new trial be granted.  I'm simply pointing out that the case needs to be viewed based on its merits, and not just dismissed as an attempt to incite a race riot simply because the defendant was black and this was the Jim Crow era.  They've brought new evidence to the table.  Is it enough?  Is it legitimate enough to warrant a review?  Should that review warrant exoneration?  I don't know, I'm not privy to the details in this case, but for anyone to completely dismiss it as racist hogwash is a little concerning.
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Snaggletiger

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Re: Why?
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2014, 11:32:40 AM »
How about we make the losing lieyer pay the costs?  Bet that would cut out some sleepless nights and caring.

Not for me, it wouldn't
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