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The Drone Thing

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The Drone Thing
« on: February 25, 2013, 10:13:04 AM »
I haven't seen this discussed here yet, so I have a lot of catching up to do in regards to ranting about this.

In other threads, I have discussed how Republicans and Democrats have seemingly flip-flopped entirely their positions on the war on terror. I have discussed at length that Obama is not the hippie peace-nick that he is often purported to be by the right. But the other side of that same coin is that, he is not worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize he was given upon taking office either. Three relatively recent articles that kind of plays in-line with this topic.

Read, or proclaim tl;dr as needed. I have my own thoughts at the end.

http://www.businessinsider.com/obamas-leaked-drone-memo-2013-2?op=1
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Seven Elements Of Obama's Leaked Drone Memo That Should Alarm Americans
Geoffrey Ingersoll

Investigative journalist for NBC Michael Isikoff published on Monday ground-breaking documents summarizing Obama's legal justification for extrajudicial drone killings of Americans.

This document set off a firestorm of debate centered around the general vagueness of the language contained therein.

Much of it was terrifying, but we've narrowed it down to seven key linguistic issues, and their implications, that we consider the most troubling.

1. The Executive branch is under no obligation to show evidence, before or after

Jameel Jaffer, a lawyer with the American Civil Liberties Union, writes:

According to the white paper, the government has the authority to carry out targeted killings of U.S. citizens without presenting evidence to a judge before the fact or after, and indeed without even acknowledging to the courts or to the public that the authority has been exercised. Without saying so explicitly, the government claims the authority to kill American terrorism suspects in secret.

This means if the administration murders someone, it cannot possibly be prosecuted.
2. The administration uses an "Elastic" definition of "imminent"

Jaffer also describes the Justice Department's use of the word 'imminent' — as in "imminent attack" — as so loose that the criterion could be applied to almost anything ... 5 days? Minutes? Months?

Jaffer says that it has been so redefined that it's lost all relevant meaning — "It's the language of limits—but without any real restrictions."

By widening out imminent in terms of time, it means that the administration can strike targets while they're in the shower, cutting toe nails, or taking a nap.
3. The loose use of language turns the War on Terror into a Forever War

The memo describes Al Qaeda as a "terrorist organization engaged in constant plotting" against the U.S. So as long as they perceive Al Qaeda exists, the executive branch can conduct extrajudicial killings.

This means the next president can conduct the same exercise of power. The authority to kill without transparency continues so long as any executive branch perceives a threat, possibly (and probably) forever.
4. Language sets precedent for foreign strikes inside U.S. borders

The following justification for crossing borders of countries with which the U.S. is not currently at war — countries "unwilling or unable" to mitigate "terrorist threats" themselves — potentially gives other nations a foot in the door, under the Constitution, to target their own definitions of terrorist threats inside U.S. borders.

From Jaffer: "The white paper also suggests, incorrectly, that the courts have endorsed the view that there is no geographic limitation on the government's exercise of war powers."

In short, a foreign nation can claim the right to strike inside the U.S. border against anyone they consider a terrorist.
5. There is zero check on authority to conduct extrajudicial killings

Much like the lack of necessity to show evidence before or after a strike, the Obama administration has also tipped power precipitously into the hands of the Executive Branch.

In grade school, every American learns that each branch of government has checks and balances against the power of the others. In this case, presently, no such check exists — the Executive Branch acts unilaterally (and until a law is passed requiring transparency to some degree, in perpetuity).

Obama, who OKs these death penalties as summarily as Judge Dredd, is Judge, Jury, and Executioner.
6. The memo blurs the line of "armed" and "violent"

There is never a proper, stringent definition of either "armed" or "violent" — as in "armed" terrorists committing "violent," "imminent" attacks.

Can a terrorist be armed with a computer keyboard, a microphone, a computer? And can his communication be considered a "violent" attack?

This means that members of Anonymous, for example, are not far behind.
7. The administration likens the terms "lawful" and "not unlawful"

With this use of words the administration moves aggressively into the space between what's legal and what's criminal.

The memo cites a carried out death sentence as an example of when the state can lawfully execute a U.S. citizen—though it ignores how a death sentence is only conducted following a rigorous examination of evidence.

This term interchangeability of "lawful" and "not unlawful" should recall memories of George Orwell's newspeak, which sought to promote state power through deliberately ambiguous language.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/view_from_chicago/2013/02/leaked_drone_memo_obama_can_do_whatever_he_wants_to_fight_terrorism.html
Quote
President Obama Can Do Anything He Wants To Fight Terrorism
That’s the lesson of the leaked drone memo.

By Eric Posner|Posted Tuesday, Feb. 5, 2013, at 3:58 PM
Pakistani demonstrators shout anti-US slogans during a protest in Multan on January 8, 2013, against the drone attacks in Pakistan's tribal areas.

So far, the reporting on the leaked white paper from the Justice Department about drone attacks clearly assumes that we are supposed to be outraged by the Obama administration’s legal theories, just as we were supposed to be outraged by the Bush administration’s. And outrage is being dutifully ginned up. But the memo is utterly conventional as legal analysis; its arguments could easily have been predicted. It’s most useful as an opportunity to reflect on how the law has evolved to address the problem of terror.

All you need to know in order to understand the memo is that Obama administration lawyers have enthusiastically endorsed the once-vilified Bush administration decision to classify security operations against al-Qaida as “war” rather than as “law enforcement.” This was not an inevitable decision. Obviously, the use of military force in Afghanistan was a military operation, and to the extent that members of al-Qaida joined Taliban soldiers in defending the Afghan homeland against the U.S. attack, they could be killed on sight and detained without charges, as is permitted by the international laws of war. But the U.S. government could otherwise have regarded al-Qaida as a criminal organization like a street gang or drug cartel. Outside the battlefield in Afghanistan, the government would then have pursued members of al-Qaida with conventional law enforcement measures.

If the administration had taken the law enforcement approach, members of al-Qaida who are American citizens would have had the same rights to due process that are familiar from everyday policing. We would send FBI agents to foreign countries like Yemen after obtaining permission from governments to conduct joint law enforcement operations. Or we would have asked foreign governments to arrest suspected members of al-Qaida and extradite them to the United States. We could not have sent drones to kill them. We would have offered them trials in civilian courts.

But, at Bush’s urging, Congress did not authorize war (only) against Afghanistan; it also authorized war against al-Qaida. That meant that members of al-Qaida would be treated as belligerents. U.S. forces could shoot them on sight, just as they could drop bombs on German military formations during World War II. They could detain suspected al-Qaida members without charging them or giving them trials and hold them as detainees, just as thousands of German soldiers were held as detainees during World War II. And it doesn’t matter if you’re an al-Qaida member who happens to be a U.S. citizen, just as it didn’t matter if you were a German soldier who happened to be an American citizen during World War II. U.S. forces could capture or kill American citizens who joined German forces and detain them as POWs, and they did so.

That said, clearly the analogy is not perfect, and the memo lays out a narrower standard for killing U.S. citizens than would be used in a conventional war. It must be the case that (1) an informed, high-level U.S. official believes that the individual in question poses an imminent threat of violent attack; (2) capture is not feasible; and (3) the operation complies with the laws of war. The author of the DOJ memo pulls these requirements out of his or her hat. They are formally derived from the due process clause, via the 2004 war-on-terror case Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, which in turn adopted the rule from an old case called Mathews v. Eldridge (about the right to Social Security disability benefits of all things), which provided that one must “balance” the private interest and the government interest. So the memo “balances” the interest of the target in his own life against the interest of the government in protecting other citizens, and the three-prong rule is simply asserted as the outcome of that balancing.

There are several odd features of this standard that deserve comment. First, a “high-level” official (the president?) must make the determination rather than someone else in the military hierarchy, which is not the case in ordinary warfare. Nor do normal military operations require a determination that capture is infeasible before the use of lethal force. It may well make political sense for the U.S. government not to kill a U.S. citizen via drone attack without these determinations, but it is hard to see why any of this is legally required once one accepts the premise that al-Qaida, and its associated forces, pose a military threat in the same way that Nazi Germany did. To be sure, al-Qaida does not pose as much a military threat, but no one has ever argued that this makes any difference. The unstated premise must be that a roving assignment to kill anyone who is a member of al-Qaida, or seems like a member of al-Qaida, or a member of an “associated force” of al-Qaida, which may well mean any Islamic terror group or even charity, is more questionable and more subject to abuse than an order to shoot a member of the armed forces of a belligerent state. So the memo limits somewhat the degree of executive discretion by using elastic terms. (How high is “high”? How feasible is capture? What is an “associated force”?) In the end, all of this will do little to constrain anything.

Second, the memo both fixates on the concept of the imminence of the threat the target poses—the word appears dozens of times—while depriving it of all meaning. It turns out that the high-level official does not actually need to believe that the targeted individual is in the process of launching an attack or is about to start one. That would be too high a bar. Instead, the memo assumes that al-Qaida is constantly planning attacks, so anyone who is an “operational leader” and “is personally and continually involved in planning terrorist attacks” against the United States counts as an imminent threat. They don’t sleep or go on vacation—they are always fair game.

This is not a crazy view. German soldiers during World War II were fair game even when they were asleep in their barracks. But the question is why the lawyers would at once focus on the word imminence and ignore its meaning. The only reason I can think of is that international law says that military force can be used in self-defense only against imminent threats, and many international lawyers resist the idea that the United States can be at war with al-Qaida (because it is neither a nation-state nor a conventional insurgency) or with “associated forces,” which may be any group, anywhere in the world, that interacts with or shares the ideology of al-Qaida. And recently, nations belonging to the International Criminal Court agreed to give that court the leeway to deal with the “crime of aggression.” A drone strike against a member of al-Qaida in a country that has not given permission for such a strike would certainly count as such a crime of aggression—unless it was part of a war of self-defense, that is, a response to an “imminent” threat. Calling any use of military force against al-Qaida a response to an imminent threat may be an effort to forestall future accusations of war crimes against Obama administration officials similar to those directed at Bush administration officials. But if so, it’s a flimsy one.

Obama and Bush administration lawyers have stretched the Constitution and traditional rules of international law to accommodate the threat posed by terrorism. Some people will say they violated the law. But given the political consensus supporting these moves within the U.S., it is more accurate to say that the law has evolved. It gives the president the discretion he needs, or at least wants, to address an amorphous threat. Let’s hope he uses that discretion wisely.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2013/02/25/peter-beinart-liberals-back-in-love-with-imperial-presidency.html
Quote
Follow the Leader
by Peter Beinart Feb 25, 2013 4:45 AM EST
How liberals fell in love with the imperial presidency (again).

The late American historian John Morton Blum begins his book The Progressive Presidents by describing a political gathering on a hilltop in Ascutney, Vermont, in 1967. The people assembled there are not radicals, but liberals: “good burghers … respectable suburbanites.” And they have come to oppose not merely the Vietnam War, but the toxin that lies beneath it: excessive presidential power.
Barack Obama

President Barack Obama delivers a speech beneath a portrait of Abraham Lincoln in the State Dining Room of the White House in Washington D.C. (Charles Ommanney/Getty)

Blum spends the rest of his book teasing out the irony: that once upon a time, to be an American liberal was to support “a strong presidency,” the kind of presidency created by Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, and Woodrow Wilson, the “progressive presidents” Blum admires.

Had Blum revisited his subject in 2007, he would have marveled at how well his thesis fared. By the late Bush years, people like the good liberals of Ascutney—now clutching lattes—were denouncing not merely the war in Iraq, but the new “imperial presidency” hatched in Dick Cheney’s basement: the signing statements that altered the meaning of laws, the secret torture sites, the spying on Americans, the efforts to destroy critics of the war, the brazen lies. “George W. Bush has quipped several times during his political career that it would be so much easier to govern in a dictatorship,” editorialized The New York Times in 2005. “Apparently he never told his vice president that this was a joke.”

But today, the liberal admiration for presidential power that Blum memorialized is back. President Obama has claimed the right to kill American citizens involved in terrorism, and resisted subjecting his decisions to either congressional or judicial review. He’s given recess appointments to nominees the Senate would not confirm even when the Senate was not technically in recess. He employed an exotic legislative maneuver to pass his health-care law and has used executive orders to institute many of the policy changes Congress would not enact. And he’s become so resistant to media scrutiny that longtime ABC News White House reporter Ann Compton recently called “the president’s [lack of] availability to the press ... a disgrace.”

Through all this, mainstream liberal Democrats have mostly yawned. Liberals may not be thrilled about the drone program, but they trust Obama’s judgment in a way they never trusted Bush’s. And like progressives a century ago, they want a president strong enough to impose his will on a Congress that they consider reactionary, corrupt, and dismissive of the public will. During the Bush years, movies such as Syriana and the Bourne trilogy portrayed America’s leaders as deceitful warmongers. But in the Obama era, Hollywood has rediscovered its faith in the Oval Office. Steven Spielberg’s Lincoln is an ends-justify-the-means tale of a president who shades the truth and violates the letter of the law in order to achieve the greater good of outlawing slavery. The contemporary message is clear: Do what you have to do, President Obama. We trust you.

Would Blum be pleased? Partially, because as the progressives understood, it requires some concentration of presidential power to match the forces of concentrated wealth. But Blum would also know that, sooner or later, the liberal faith in presidential power will be betrayed, and the good people of Ascutney will rise again, probably not a moment too soon.

I find the hypocrisy on both sides fascinating. I personally like Obama's foreign policy, more so than many of his domestic policies. But it's not the free-loving hippie leftist policy that conservatives want to paint it. At the same time, it has way more in common with Bush than the left would ever admit. Why is Bush a war criminal, the worst president in our entire history, etc. etc., but Benghazi "isn't relevant" and the leaked drone policy, giving the President sole power to murder people without answering to anyone, or showing any supporting evidence before or after is NBD? Now, I get that in order to effectively fight terrorism, we as civilians don't need to know everything our government is doing, and it takes breaking a few eggs to make an omelet. But can you imagine if any Republican president was doing this, let alone Bush? I'm pretty sure Bush would have been impeached over this. However, somehow, the same people leading protests against Bush seem to be totally cool with this.

Let's just go with the false premise that Obama is perfect, always makes the right decision, and is immaculately responsible with this power, and all Republicans are belligerent war-mongers. Do these people not realize, that as bad as things are for Republicans now, eventually, one will win the presidency again? Are they going to be so comfortable with this executive power then?

As I said, I tend to be pretty ok with it for the most part, just as I supported things that I might not under normal circumstances during the Bush Administration, such as the Patriot Act, torture, etc. (which we still do, by the way, and if you saw Zero Dark Thirty, you'll realize it played a huge role in leading us to Bin Laden). But I guess the main reason it bugs me is the hypocrisy of it all, from both sides, but especially from the left. Because Bush cannot be a tyrannical war criminal in the same world that Obama is literally a Nobel Peace Prize recipient. That notion defies logic and fairness.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 10:47:42 AM by AUChizad »
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GH2001

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2013, 10:39:30 AM »
Personally Bush seems like an ok dude. But personal and political are 2 different things. His policy sucked. I think Iraq was a big mistake. We're now bogged down in that region. We have failed to learn that region cannot be fixed by an outside presence. It's been going on for 1500 years and has a lot of deep history that sitting around as singing Kumbaya (most democrats) will not fix. Neither will a war (most of the GOP) 

Prescription drug plan, no child left behind, patriot act, homeland security, unbalanced budgets, tarp 1 - all things I opposed from Bush. DoD spending under bush soared. Do we really need 976 bases around the globe at taxpayer expense? Nobody bothers to look at the federal outlays we shell out. If you look at DoD and HHS spending as compared to what we bring in revenue wise, you'd be appalled.

I do give him credit for his tax policy. It was good.

But getting to the drone thing.....I think it's unreal. And I'm glad Rand Paul seems to be one person in Dc who gets it. My big issue with it is the lack of due process on our own soil. Whether its Bush or Obama, this kind of govt overreach is very bad. Hell I think the TSA should be kicked out of airports. If the Republicans put anything short of Rand Paul and/or Marco Rubio on the 2016, then they are dead to me.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 10:44:17 AM by GH2001 »
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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2013, 11:05:41 AM »
It's 1984 by George Orwell. 

100%.  You have zero defense against a military drone, and it's only a matter of time before our government uses them on our own citizens.  Maybe not necessarily assassinating people (if they get on the black market, it'll happen), but as for spying on citizens and invading their privacy and possibly even selling drone information to advertisers, it's going to happen. 
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AUTiger1

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2013, 11:39:10 AM »
Personally Bush seems like an ok dude. But personal and political are 2 different things. His policy sucked. I think Iraq was a big mistake. We're now bogged down in that region. We have failed to learn that region cannot be fixed by an outside presence. It's been going on for 1500 years and has a lot of deep history that sitting around as singing Kumbaya (most democrats) will not fix. Neither will a war (most of the GOP) 

Prescription drug plan, no child left behind, patriot act, homeland security, unbalanced budgets, tarp 1 - all things I opposed from Bush. DoD spending under bush soared. Do we really need 976 bases around the globe at taxpayer expense? Nobody bothers to look at the federal outlays we shell out. If you look at DoD and HHS spending as compared to what we bring in revenue wise, you'd be appalled.

I do give him credit for his tax policy. It was good.

But getting to the drone thing.....I think it's unreal. And I'm glad Rand Paul seems to be one person in Dc who gets it. My big issue with it is the lack of due process on our own soil. Whether its Bush or Obama, this kind of govt overreach is very bad. Hell I think the TSA should be kicked out of airports. If the Republicans put anything short of Rand Paul and/or Marco Rubio on the 2016, then they are dead to me.

Quoting so I don't have to type out anything.  Spot on.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2013, 11:41:35 AM »
Several points from the devil's advocate to piss everyone off...

The President having "sole" discretion in a military decision is nothing new.  This is not a new policy regarding drone strikes; this is how we've always operated.  Granted, Presidents usually defer to military officers and officials when making such decisions, but the President is ultimately the highest in military command with the final say.

Didn't Johnson sit in the oval office and declare bombing targets in Vietnam?  Didn't Lincoln make the decision to kill Confederate soldiers as enemy combatants, not affording them any due process rights as American citizens?

Which brings up the issue of drones being used against citizens.  Although I believe the memo is still confidential, my understanding of the DoJ's memo is that citizens who take up arms against the United States can be killed by a drone strike...not just some drug dealer who is facing domestic charges unrelated to war.  Make all of the slippery slope arguments about what the government will do with drones in the future, but I don't think this memo has declared that they have the right to do what some of you are claiming.

In fact, unless the news media is misreporting on the actual content of the DoJ memo, the two premises that they cited for a lawful drone strike are A) imminent threat of an attack (allowing for a pre-emptive attack), or B) affiliation with Al Qaeda.  Both of these are "identifiers" of enemy combatants which were instituted by Congress when we first engaged in the war on terror...not something new that was created by this particular evil Democratic regime.

With that being said, I think drone strikes on American citizens (even if they are proven to be planning an attack or otherwise affiliated with Al Qaeda) is too far.  Surely we've got other less destructive means by which to apprehend someone who is within our own borders.

But the decision to use a drone strike or not in war?  It's nothing new for such a military decision to ultimately fall on the Commander in Chief.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 11:43:57 AM by Vandy Vol »
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bottomfeeder

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2013, 11:42:00 AM »
10 magnum buckshot.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 11:45:33 AM by bottomfeeder »
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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2013, 11:43:34 AM »
I'm buying my own drone in March.  I know what I will be using it for.  But I don't have to tell you.
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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2013, 12:05:37 PM »
Several points from the devil's advocate to piss everyone off...

The President having "sole" discretion in a military decision is nothing new.  This is not a new policy regarding drone strikes; this is how we've always operated.  Granted, Presidents usually defer to military officers and officials when making such decisions, but the President is ultimately the highest in military command with the final say.

Didn't Johnson sit in the oval office and declare bombing targets in Vietnam?  Didn't Lincoln make the decision to kill Confederate soldiers as enemy combatants, not affording them any due process rights as American citizens?

Which brings up the issue of drones being used against citizens.  Although I believe the memo is still confidential, my understanding of the DoJ's memo is that citizens who take up arms against the United States can be killed by a drone strike...not just some drug dealer who is facing domestic charges unrelated to war.  Make all of the slippery slope arguments about what the government will do with drones in the future, but I don't think this memo has declared that they have the right to do what some of you are claiming.

In fact, unless the news media is misreporting on the actual content of the DoJ memo, the two premises that they cited for a lawful drone strike are A) imminent threat of an attack (allowing for a pre-emptive attack), or B) affiliation with Al Qaeda.  Both of these are "identifiers" of enemy combatants which were instituted by Congress when we first engaged in the war on terror...not something new that was created by this particular evil Democratic regime.

With that being said, I think drone strikes on American citizens (even if they are proven to be planning an attack or otherwise affiliated with Al Qaeda) is too far.  Surely we've got other less destructive means by which to apprehend someone who is within our own borders.

But the decision to use a drone strike or not in war?  It's nothing new for such a military decision to ultimately fall on the Commander in Chief.

What war exactly are we engaged in currently on American soil? Involving American citizens at that?

Civil war. A war.

Vietnam. A war (or campaign with war funds) on the land of the enemy.

Sorry but this is American soil that inhabits American citizens. Due process. The end.
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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2013, 12:28:04 PM »
What war exactly are we engaged in currently on American soil? Involving American citizens at that?

Again, it wasn't this administration which expanded the definition of enemy combatants.  The DoJ merely applied definitions which were created by Congress when we initially started the war on terror.

When someone is identified as an enemy combatant, due process no longer applies to them, unless we're talking about captured enemy combatants; the Supreme Court has determined that limited due process rights are applied to the detention of enemy combatants.  But in regard to making a decision to kill an enemy combatant, due process doesn't play a part, regardless of whether the enemy combatant is on American soil.
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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2013, 12:43:07 PM »
Again, it wasn't this administration which expanded the definition of enemy combatants.  The DoJ merely applied definitions which were created by Congress when we initially started the war on terror.

When someone is identified as an enemy combatant, due process no longer applies to them, unless we're talking about captured enemy combatants; the Supreme Court has determined that limited due process rights are applied to the detention of enemy combatants.  But in regard to making a decision to kill an enemy combatant, due process doesn't play a part, regardless of whether the enemy combatant is on American soil.

You are correct sir, Bush started this shit. Directed Energy Weapons can take down drones.
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Saniflush

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2013, 12:54:17 PM »
I agree. 

That fucking war criminal Lincoln stated all this shit.
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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2013, 01:07:04 PM »
I agree. 

That fucking war criminal Lincoln stated all this shit.

 :rofl:
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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2013, 01:22:18 PM »
 
Again, it wasn't this administration which expanded the definition of enemy combatants.  The DoJ merely applied definitions which were created by Congress when we initially started the war on terror.

When someone is identified as an enemy combatant, due process no longer applies to them, unless we're talking about captured enemy combatants; the Supreme Court has determined that limited due process rights are applied to the detention of enemy combatants.  But in regard to making a decision to kill an enemy combatant, due process doesn't play a part, regardless of whether the enemy combatant is on American soil.

Def not arguing who started it. As I stated above, I loathe Bush as well. But Obama could undo a lot of this. Instead he is putting it on roids and exploiting it. Its more the labeling of what an enemy combatant is that is appalling. Is the govt prepared to get sued if they kill an innocent person? Or will they copout and call it collateral damage or COW? You have to ask these questions. Look how many times we've fucked up overseas being off target killing civilians. You want that here? A unilateral determination of who an enemy combatant is with subsequent action on US soil should raise red flags regardless of what party you're in or who started it.
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GH2001

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2013, 01:24:08 PM »
I agree. 

That fucking war criminal Lincoln stated all this shit.

This guy ^^^ gets it.
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AUChizad

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2013, 01:38:52 PM »
Several points from the devil's advocate to piss everyone off...

The President having "sole" discretion in a military decision is nothing new.  This is not a new policy regarding drone strikes; this is how we've always operated.  Granted, Presidents usually defer to military officers and officials when making such decisions, but the President is ultimately the highest in military command with the final say.

Didn't Johnson sit in the oval office and declare bombing targets in Vietnam?  Didn't Lincoln make the decision to kill Confederate soldiers as enemy combatants, not affording them any due process rights as American citizens?

Which brings up the issue of drones being used against citizens.  Although I believe the memo is still confidential, my understanding of the DoJ's memo is that citizens who take up arms against the United States can be killed by a drone strike...not just some drug dealer who is facing domestic charges unrelated to war.  Make all of the slippery slope arguments about what the government will do with drones in the future, but I don't think this memo has declared that they have the right to do what some of you are claiming.

In fact, unless the news media is misreporting on the actual content of the DoJ memo, the two premises that they cited for a lawful drone strike are A) imminent threat of an attack (allowing for a pre-emptive attack), or B) affiliation with Al Qaeda.  Both of these are "identifiers" of enemy combatants which were instituted by Congress when we first engaged in the war on terror...not something new that was created by this particular evil Democratic regime.

With that being said, I think drone strikes on American citizens (even if they are proven to be planning an attack or otherwise affiliated with Al Qaeda) is too far.  Surely we've got other less destructive means by which to apprehend someone who is within our own borders.

But the decision to use a drone strike or not in war?  It's nothing new for such a military decision to ultimately fall on the Commander in Chief.
I agree with everything you're saying here.

As I said, I'm cool with stretching the bounds of civil liberties to capture and kill terrorists. As you noted, the US citizens everyone is so outraged about possibly being killed by executive order are Al-Qaeda terrorist heretics. I wasn't shedding any tears John Walker Lindh either, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone right of center who did.

I guess that's my point. More than outraged by any of this, I'm more fascinated by the reversal of party attitudes towards these types of methods. I'm fascinated by the narrative, especially from the left, that Bush was evil, and abusive of his executive powers and at the same time think nothing of these drone white papers from a literal Nobel Peace Prize recipient.
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bottomfeeder

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2013, 03:08:22 PM »
Insert language concerning Enemy Belligerents.

Quote
"Enemy belligerent. Citizens who associate themselves with the military arm of an enemy government and enter the United States bent on hostile acts" (emphasis added).
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 03:22:06 PM by bottomfeeder »
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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2013, 04:19:20 PM »
Def not arguing who started it. As I stated above, I loathe Bush as well. But Obama could undo a lot of this. Instead he is putting it on roids and exploiting it. Its more the labeling of what an enemy combatant is that is appalling. Is the govt prepared to get sued if they kill an innocent person? Or will they copout and call it collateral damage or COW? You have to ask these questions. Look how many times we've fucked up overseas being off target killing civilians. You want that here? A unilateral determination of who an enemy combatant is with subsequent action on US soil should raise red flags regardless of what party you're in or who started it.

I pretty much agree with Bush's initiation of pre-emptive strikes when imminent threats are identified.  The problem is whether we trust the government to competently gather and act on information it receives regarding "imminent" threats.

I also agree with Bush's identification of anyone who aligns themselves with Al Qaeda as an "enemy combatant."  But again, it comes down to whether the government can competently and accurately identify individuals as members of Al Qaeda.

If we don't trust our government to make those determinations, however, then who is going to do it?  Afterall, we are talking about military actions, which the government has direct control over.

I have no problem with drone striking an American citizen if it can be shown that they were an imminent terrorist threat or otherwise involved with Al Qaeda.  But like most of you, I do worry about the slippery slope in which the government could claim the existence of an imminent threat or ties to Al Qaeda, kill someone, and then be wrong, whether intentionally or negligently.

But as far as whether anything this administration has done in relation to war activities and drone strikes has been illegal, improper, or unprecedented?  I don't see it.  If people are going to raise a shit storm about the DoJ's justification for drone strikes on American citizens identified as enemy combatants, then I hope they were raising a shit storm when Bush's administration created new definitions for enemy combatants during the course of our declared war on terror.  Not trying to blame anything on Bush, just pointing out where all of this came from and what the reasoning behind it is.
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bottomfeeder

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2013, 04:44:32 PM »
But like most of you, I do worry about the slippery slope in which the government could claim the existence of an imminent threat or ties to Al Qaeda, kill someone, and then be wrong, whether intentionally or negligently.

This is my biggest concern as well. It's like they have never made this mistake before right? :facepalm:

Both sides work hand in hand.
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Saniflush

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 06:52:16 AM »
As is the case with the giving up of most any right, the real infringement upon the right doesn't come immediately.  It comes when there are different people in control who forget why that right was infringed upon in the first place.  I have confidence that the government would wield that power responsibly right now.  I do not have ANY faith that the government is capable of making just decisions down the road.

"A government is a body of people, usually, notably ungoverned."
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

GH2001

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Re: The Drone Thing
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 09:12:38 AM »
Insert language concerning Enemy Belligerents.

That is a very misleading and out of context chart. The smaller the debt is to begin with at the start of a term, the less of an actual number it takes to make the % increase look "big". Make no mistake about it, BHO has increased the debt more than any other president. Period. It has went from 10 to 16 Trillion in just 4 years and 1 month. And even from a % perspective, the graph is not right. Besides, when it was done it was attempting to compare 3 years of Obama (first year of spending was actually a bush budget) with 8 year terms of Reagan, Clinton and Bush and at that, on a term % increase basis. If you fall for this crap, you are even dumber than I thought.

Did you know Reagan was also dealing with the bankrupting the soviets and a 65% democratic controlled
congress? To get what he wanted in defense he had to concede a lot to the democrats in every single budget. Look it up.
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