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Pat Dye Field => War Damn Eagle => Topic started by: Townhallsavoy on August 27, 2013, 12:12:37 PM
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TL;DR - Ban the substances making NFL players super fast behemoths and you eliminate the amount of injuries in the NFL.
Did NFL players in the 40s, 50s, and 60s find themselves getting seriously injured nearly every game? Have those players gone on to have long term concussion problems that lead to suicide and murders? Are they crazy? Did they lose decades off their lives?
I haven't heard about any of them facing the issues that the players from the 70s, 80s, and 90s have had. It also seems like the prognosis for current players is grim.
So to avoid lawsuits (because NFL players can't take responsibility for their own decisions to play a game that involves slamming bodies and helmets into each other but that's another thread), the NFL is looking at all ways to make the game safer.
We've had the concussion era, and I think that's on the downslide. Players are penalized, ejected, and fined for any hit to the head or using their head to hit someone else. Football will soon feature helmets as the new facemask. Don't touch it at all.
Now they're moving on to knees. Because where else would players tackle a runner if they can't go high? They go low. So now we'll see more penalties and rules and regulations that prevent defenders and blockers and runners from ever going at someone's knees no matter intent.
But what's the real problem here?
Is it the way players play the game?
Or is it the fact that Trent Richardson is 5'9 230 pounds and was clocked at a 4.45 40 yard dash? The fact that he can bench press 225 pounds 25 times? The fact that he's been seen bench pressing almost 500 pounds?
Perhaps it's because a safety can be 5'11 210 pounds with a 4.5 40. Maybe a guy like Ed Reed having less than 10% body fat while still being 210 pounds is the problem.
You really want to fix the NFL? Ban ALL performance enhancing substances. ALL of them. Not just steroids and HGH. Not just a few chemicals or pain killers. All of them.
That includes creatine, Hydroxycut, whey protein shakes, and arginine.
Make it so that NFL players must eat food, take a multivitamin, and exercise. That's all they get for preparing to play in the NFL.
While our knowledge of strength and conditioning and nutrition is well beyond what we knew back when football first got started, we're still at a point of unnatural ability and size.
No one should be 5'11 230 pounds of solid muscle with a 4.44 40 yard dash like Eddie Lacy is. Our bones aren't built to withstand a gigantic person running that fast directly into you with reckless abandonment.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9604635/nfl-study-hits-knees-eye-rule-change?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
NEW YORK -- The NFL will keep a close eye on hits to the knees of defenseless players this season, with the possibility of extending the rules protecting such players.
If the league's competition committee finds enough evidence this season that hits to the knees are "becoming a problem," it could take action, chief of football operations Ray Anderson told The Associated Press on Tuesday.
The committee could make a recommendation to the owners next March to prohibit direct hits to the knees of defenseless players. The owners would then vote on such a change.
"We are always looking at plays that may elevate themselves and we do include in that category hits on defenseless players," Anderson said. "And certainly the hits to knees to players who have not had the opportunity to protect themselves or are not looking in the direction of where the hit comes from -- we have had a couple hits whereby a player was hit below [or at] the knees."
Currently, hits to the head and neck of defenseless players are banned. But two direct hits to the knee in preseason games that injured Miami tight end Dustin Keller (by Texans rookie D.J. Swearinger) and Minnesota defensive tackle Kevin Williams (on low block by 49ers guard Joe Looney) have drawn complaints from some players.
Keller is out for the season with several torn ligaments. Williams has a hyperextended knee.
Anderson said the league will monitor plays during the season, study the data when the competition committee begins meeting after the season and see whether such hits to the knees are an "aberration or becoming a problem."
"This issue has not directly come up," Anderson added. "But when we have had discussions when making the head and neck area completely off-limits to players, there was some concern players might lower their targets and might include knees and below. We will look at that going forward."
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That includes creatine, Hydroxycut, whey protein shakes, and arginine.
There is really no good way to control or test for this. Really? A protein shake!
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No comment on the testing or cutting out all supplements. Just an observation. I was watching some MMA fights last night and they were showing a strike count on one particular fight where each guy had landed over a 120 blows. With the exception of a few kicks to the body, the majority were punches to the head. How is it that concussions seem to be an issue isolated to football in recent years. Just taking MMA as an example, here's a sport where over the course of many years, a fighter literally takes thousands of blows to the head in practice and matches. No head gear at all in real matches. Why is this not an issue in MMA, at least not one we hear about, when you can see a QB in the NFL take a hard tackle and be held out for 5 games because he's "showing signs of being concussed". Foosballz players have the heaviest protective equipment of any sport out there.
One note, I heard Chuck Barkley on ESPN the other day talking about going out for football at Leeds, then telling the coach the same day, thanks, but no thanks. He said there was too much violence on every play. Saying it as only Sir Charles can...."Players coming back, talkin' bout getting concussions. Hell, I coulda' told you 30 years ago this game will give you a concussion."
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No comment on the testing or cutting out all supplements. Just an observation. I was watching some MMA fights last night and they were showing a strike count on one particular fight where each guy had landed over a 120 blows. With the exception of a few kicks to the body, the majority were punches to the head. How is it that concussions seem to be an issue isolated to football in recent years. Just taking MMA as an example, here's a sport where over the course of many years, a fighter literally takes thousands of blows to the head in practice and matches. No head gear at all in real matches. Why is this not an issue in MMA, at least not one we hear about, when you can see a QB in the NFL take a hard tackle and be held out for 5 games because he's "showing signs of being concussed". Foosballz players have the heaviest protective equipment of any sport out there.
If I had to guess, it is probably due to more movement in football. When you're punching the shit out of a guy, typically, his brain isn't making a quick movement into his skull. The skull is probably absorbing most of the energy from the hit. When you're dealing with a guy running full speed into you, or a hard helmet hitting a hard helmet, the brain is more likely to hit the inside of the skull. I guess maybe a matter of inertia?
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There is really no good way to control or test for this. Really? A protein shake!
Everything that is in those is in other things we eat. No way to ban them.
Guess we'll ban coffee too. And meat. Since that's caffeine and protein. Arginine is an amino acid. Essential to the human body and in foods. Ban it. Same with creatine. Also occurs in foods. Ban them.
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Everything that is in those is in other things we eat. No way to ban them.
Guess we'll ban coffee too. And meat. Since that's caffeine and protein. Arginine is an amino acid. Essential to the human body and in foods. Ban it. Same with creatine. Also occurs in foods. Ban them.
Are you obtuse?
It takes 1 pound of beef to get 5 grams of creatine. On the label of a Micronized Creatine product, it suggests taking 20 grams of creatine to build muscle.
WebMD suggests that our bodies have a healthy level of arginine without the use of supplements but a 2-3 gram supplement may be useful for those with a deficiency. On Bodybuilding.com, there are multiple threads where people are saying that it takes at least 5 grams of arginine per day to properly bulk up and add weight.
The point is that professional football players aren't just getting their creatine, caffeine, etc from food. They're taking supplements that cause a massive overload of these substances thus making it possible for them to have the physique that they have.
I don't buy the argument that we can't test for things. We can test for levels of just about anything in a blood stream as long as we know what we're targeting.
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Are you obtuse?
It takes 1 pound of beef to get 5 grams of creatine. On the label of a Micronized Creatine product, it suggests taking 20 grams of creatine to build muscle.
WebMD suggests that our bodies have a healthy level of arginine without the use of supplements but a 2-3 gram supplement may be useful for those with a deficiency. On Bodybuilding.com, there are multiple threads where people are saying that it takes at least 5 grams of arginine per day to properly bulk up and add weight.
The point is that professional football players aren't just getting their creatine, caffeine, etc from food. They're taking supplements that cause a massive overload of these substances thus making it possible for them to have the physique that they have.
I don't buy the argument that we can't test for things. We can test for levels of just about anything in a blood stream as long as we know what we're targeting.
I see what you're saying, and I understand what you're getting at. I just think that the whole issue would be very difficult to manage. Sure, you're going to ban certain things, or put a limit on how much of something can be in the blood stream. The problem is, there are tons and tons and tons of supplements out there. You're going to be constantly banning supplements that athletes will start using because they are going to find new stuff when you ban whatever they currently use.
Another issue is, some people are genetically more apt to things like muscle growth, etc. If you and I both lift just the same every day for a period of time, we will more than likely have different results. One will gain more mass than the other. One will gain it where the other might not. Etc, etc. Do you set a threshold that says "If you're under this percent of body fat, then you're too in shape to play."? One more problem is that when you're bashing into each other, as football players tend to do, a more "fragile" player would be more apt to injury. There are so many problems that this would cause.
At the end of the day, no amount of creatine, whey, or whatever has anything to do with guys going low and targeting knees with the intent to harm.
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I see what you're saying, and I understand what you're getting at. I just think that the whole issue would be very difficult to manage. Sure, you're going to ban certain things, or put a limit on how much of something can be in the blood stream. The problem is, there are tons and tons and tons of supplements out there. You're going to be constantly banning supplements that athletes will start using because they are going to find new stuff when you ban whatever they currently use.
Another issue is, some people are genetically more apt to things like muscle growth, etc. If you and I both lift just the same every day for a period of time, we will more than likely have different results. One will gain more mass than the other. One will gain it where the other might not. Etc, etc. Do you set a threshold that says "If you're under this percent of body fat, then you're too in shape to play."? One more problem is that when you're bashing into each other, as football players tend to do, a more "fragile" player would be more apt to injury. There are so many problems that this would cause.
At the end of the day, no amount of creatine, whey, or whatever has anything to do with guys going low and targeting knees with the intent to harm.
I understand that it would be hard and expensive to manage. Perhaps it's impossible to test for natural supplements like that. I don't really know.
But if I'm honest, I don't believe it's creatine, arginine, or any other natural supplement. I think these guys are on roids or HGH or some other unnatural, not occurring in food supplement.
Playing any sport subjects you to injury. Your knees are at risk playing basketball. Your shoulder and elbow are at risk playing baseball. You could die if someone beamed you with a baseball. Your head and knees are at risk playing football. Your knees are at risk playing soccer. Rugby doesn't even feature a helmet. Golf can cause issues in your lower back and knees.
But I don't see basketball outlawing jumping. Baseball outlawing fast balls. Golf forcing players to change their swing.
Football is changing the game to protect itself from lawsuits for injuries that are not going to be protected by these new rules. ACLs will tear. Concussions will occur. And the reason why the NFL is getting such a bad rap for these injuries is because they occur often and have been increasing over time. Why is that? Because of the game? Or because the players the NFL signs are increasing becoming more like chemically enhanced machines?
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I think these guys are on roids or HGH or some other unnatural, not occurring in food supplement.
Novedex, Halodrol, M1T and Superdrol were all at one time legal products. When they were finally labeled as what they truly were, anabolic steroids, they were removed from the shelves and you could test for them. The thing is they weren't all pulled at once. Superdol was pulled and then along came M1T. Novedex and Halodrol were pulled at the same time, but since then, Gaspari Nutrition has come out with other stuff that wouldn't show up on a test and they have now been banned as well. Same with Anabolic Xterme who made Superdrol. They too have since had supplements that were later on considered anabolic steroids.
These nutrition companies that create the designer steroids are always one step ahead of the drug test. You can put all the supplements you want on the banned list and test for them, but the companies will find a way to stay ahead of the curve. They always have and always will.
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From the research I've looked at, injuries in football are purely a matter of physics. The bigger and faster the players, the more the likelyhood of injury or catastrophic injury. IE broken bones, concussions, torn ligaments, etc. So many parents won't let their kids play youth ball for fear of injury, yet the occurrence of injury at that level is extremely low. It increases as kids get older, bigger, faster. So, I guess there's merit on the suggestion of making them smaller and faster by not letting them get all roided up.
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Are you obtuse?
It takes 1 pound of beef to get 5 grams of creatine. On the label of a Micronized Creatine product, it suggests taking 20 grams of creatine to build muscle.
WebMD suggests that our bodies have a healthy level of arginine without the use of supplements but a 2-3 gram supplement may be useful for those with a deficiency. On Bodybuilding.com, there are multiple threads where people are saying that it takes at least 5 grams of arginine per day to properly bulk up and add weight.
The point is that professional football players aren't just getting their creatine, caffeine, etc from food. They're taking supplements that cause a massive overload of these substances thus making it possible for them to have the physique that they have.
I don't buy the argument that we can't test for things. We can test for levels of just about anything in a blood stream as long as we know what we're targeting.
It ever occur to you that athletes use up a lot of this stuff doing what they do? They require more than the normal amount. I take massive amounts of arginine and sodium before a 3 hr triathlon because I use a normal amount up very quickly. Not enough sodium and I'll dehydrate. Use up a normal amount of arginine and I'll get lactic acid buildup like no ones business. It would be weird to carry an iodized salt cannister with me on the bike. So ya know what? They make a nice little tablet you drop in a bottle of water that gives you what you need conveniently. Same with arginine. They're not performance enhancers. They're convenient means to replenish things in my body to normal levels that I aleady had, but lost through exertion. It's really a supply and demand thing.
Same with body builders. They need more creatine perhaps. They tax their muscles a lot more than normal. But who wants to eat 4 lbs of beef? They could. But that wouldn't be healthy. Getting it in supplement form is healthier and more convenient.
I just think its a slippery slope you go down trying test everyone for everything in re to what is considered a normal level. At least stuff that you have to ingest like the ones you mentioned occur naturally in foods. And you need them. Steroids and hgh are hormones that are regulated by the human body to always be within a certain range. Taxing your body through athletics does not require one to ingest it to "replenish". There's nothing to replenish like there is with Arginine or Sodium or Creatine. We ingest those things. At no point in time does anyone ever ingest a food with hormones (although lately a lot of meat and dairy products contain them but thats another discussion) in it as we produce that within our bodies.
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I understand that it would be hard and expensive to manage. Perhaps it's impossible to test for natural supplements like that. I don't really know.
But if I'm honest, I don't believe it's creatine, arginine, or any other natural supplement. I think these guys are on roids or HGH or some other unnatural, not occurring in food supplement.
Playing any sport subjects you to injury. Your knees are at risk playing basketball. Your shoulder and elbow are at risk playing baseball. You could die if someone beamed you with a baseball. Your head and knees are at risk playing football. Your knees are at risk playing soccer. Rugby doesn't even feature a helmet. Golf can cause issues in your lower back and knees.
Agree with all of this
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Can I get the name of your arginine dealer? My dude got busted in an undercover sting operation.
Keep this on the D.L.
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Ask Bo Jackson how many supplements he took...my guess zero. Its called genetics and evolution. Stopping that stuff won't do anything for the game IMDO
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No comment on the testing or cutting out all supplements. Just an observation. I was watching some MMA fights last night and they were showing a strike count on one particular fight where each guy had landed over a 120 blows. With the exception of a few kicks to the body, the majority were punches to the head. How is it that concussions seem to be an issue isolated to football in recent years.
They aren't it's just that no one gives a shit about concussions to MMA fighters.
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For $1,000,000- $20,000,000/year in pay, I'd gladly endure a few concussions over the next 5 years of my life.
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They aren't it's just that no one gives a shit about concussions to MMA fighters.
Yeah, but I care.
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Ask Bo Jackson how many supplements he took...my guess zero. Its called genetics and evolution. Stopping that stuff won't do anything for the game IMDO
What this guy said ^^^. All of it.
Men ramming into each other at full speed causes concussions. Period. And now vandy vol is very aroused after reading that last sentence.
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Ask Bo Jackson how many supplements he took...my guess zero. Its called genetics and evolution. Stopping that stuff won't do anything for the game IMDO
There are a few guys like Bo who are naturally like that. There are a lot more taking the juice to compete.
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Can I get the name of your arginine dealer? My dude got busted in an undercover sting operation.
Keep this on the D.L.
GNC. Or perhaps at the grocery store via cottage cheese, beef, wheat bran, yogurt, and chicken.
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There are a few guys like Bo who are naturally like that. There are a lot more taking the juice to compete.
Football was violent in jack lamberts day. Pretty sure he wasn't juicing. Violence happen when adults slam into other and knock heads. It's a violent game.
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What this guy said ^^^. All of it.
Men ramming into each other at full speed causes concussions. Period. And now vandy vol is very aroused after reading that last sentence.
All true. There are full grow'd athletes, and there will be injuries, juice or not. Would eliminating the juice cut back on the injuries? Maybe some, or at least it stands to reason. A significant decrease? Can't say.