Saints coach Sean Payton has been suspended for one year, former defensive coordinator Gregg Williams was suspended indefinitely, general manager Mickey Loomis was suspended for eight regular-season games, the team was fined $500,000 and lost two second-round draft picks (one in 2012 and '13) as a result of a bounty program conducted by the team during the 2009-11 seasons.
Haha, have fun next year Saints fans.
Damn, don't forget the two second round picks they lost as well. I guess Mr. Goodell wanted to make a statement...
Note to NCAA Committee on Infractions: THAT is how you punish rule breakers.
If you have bad news RELEASE IT NOW.
The NFL was tough on the Saints, but what they did to the Jets was inhumane.
Best tweet I saw was Stewart Mandell of SI.
And some of the comedy ones are good, too.
So long, McGinger. Fuck you.
Enjoy probation, New Orleans Bammers. Hammer's coming.
This double shot of news deserves a
:haha: and a :haha: and a :rofl:
"It's eleven-thirty. I told you to be home by ten! I DON'T CARE IF YOU'RE SIXTEEN THAT'S THREE MONTHS IN THE CAGE." - Roger Goodell, Father
I once spilled coffee on Goodell's shoes. Woke up next morning in a tub of ice & a note that said, "Your kidney 4 my shoes! LOL" Love, Rog
Oh yeah, and don't forget. Who's gonna replace him? Assistant coach Joe Vitt? Fuck you, we're suspending him six games. And just to make sure it's total fucking chaos, we're suspending GM Mickey Loomis for 8 fucking games.
Have you ever heard of a General Fucking Manager getting suspended in any sport ever? I haven't.
All this because of some shit Gregg Williams who isn't here anymore allegedly organized.
I guess you'll be pulling for the Panthers even more so next season?
And the NFL is also saying this happened last season, and Cam Newton was a specific target.
(https://p.twimg.com/Aoh5GJPCAAEnBkW.jpg)
Seriously, this is some fudgeing bullshitake.
All over something that I'm 100% certain goes on in every fudgeing locker room in the NFL. Everyone involved has said it was a bounty for "big hits", not to intentionally hurt people, and I can't see any way the NFL can empirically prove otherwise. I hope they sue for arbitrary and capricious penalty and irreparable harm.
What did Buddy Ryan get punished for his Bounty Bowls? He fudgeing didn't. Also, I want a full investigation of the 49'ers playoff knockout of Pierre Thomas if these are the rules we're playing by. Belichick was actually fudgeing cheating, and what'd he get? A couple bucks fine? Zero games suspended?
This is complete and utter garbage.
drewbrees
I am speechless. Sean Payton is a great man, coach, and mentor. The best there is. I need to hear an explanation for this punishment
And the NFL is also saying this happened last season, and Cam Newton was a specific target.
Seriously, this is some fucking bullshit.
All over something that I'm 100% certain goes on in every fucking locker room in the NFL. Everyone involved has said it was a bounty for "big hits", not to intentionally hurt people, and I can't see any way the NFL can empirically prove otherwise. I hope they sue for arbitrary and capricious penalty and irreparable harm.
What did Buddy Ryan get punished for his Bounty Bowls? He fucking didn't. Also, I want a full investigation of the 49'ers playoff knockout of Pierre Thomas if these are the rules we're playing by. Belichick was actually fucking cheating, and what'd he get? A couple bucks fine? Zero games suspended?
This is complete and utter garbage.
Seriously, this is some fucking bullshit.I'm not saying the crime = punishment, but if you read some of what happened Payton lied to Goodell after this was brought up. They even had emails from the beginning of the 2011 season where some of Payton's friends, non-football related, were emailing him wagers/bounties on players...and he admitted to it. That's not good.
All over something that I'm 100% certain goes on in every fucking locker room in the NFL. Everyone involved has said it was a bounty for "big hits", not to intentionally hurt people, and I can't see any way the NFL can empirically prove otherwise. I hope they sue for arbitrary and capricious penalty and irreparable harm.
What did Buddy Ryan get punished for his Bounty Bowls? He fucking didn't. Also, I want a full investigation of the 49'ers playoff knockout of Pierre Thomas if these are the rules we're playing by. Belichick was actually fucking cheating, and what'd he get? A couple bucks fine? Zero games suspended?
This is complete and utter garbage.
I'm not saying the crime = punishment, but if you read some of what happened Payton lied to Goodell after this was brought up. They even had emails from the beginning of the 2011 season where some of Payton's friends, non-football related, were emailing him wagers/bounties on players...and he admitted to it. That's not good.
www.profootballtalk.com (http://www.profootballtalk.com)
Aaron Rogers, Brett Favre and Kurt Warner (because Saints fans HATE Kurt Whiner and his former team teh Rams) - those all make sense. These guys can get in the way of the playoffs.I concur.
But CAM? Why him? Here's a thought - bet that fucker Ingram was behind that. Who else in the Saints locker room would have it out for Cam? How bout suspending HIS sorry ass?
Aaron Rogers, Brett Favre and Kurt Warner (because Saints fans HATE Kurt Whiner and his former team teh Rams) - those all make sense. These guys can get in the way of the playoffs.Pissed me off as well regarding Cam.
But CAM? Why him? Here's a thought - bet that fucker Ingram was behind that. Who else in the Saints locker room would have it out for Cam? How bout suspending HIS sorry ass?
Aaron Rogers, Brett Favre and Kurt Warner (because Saints fans HATE Kurt Whiner and his former team teh Rams) - those all make sense. These guys can get in the way of the playoffs.
But CAM? Why him? Here's a thought - bet that fucker Ingram was behind that. Who else in the Saints locker room would have it out for Cam? How bout suspending HIS sorry ass?
"It caught me by surprise. But with me knowing some of the guys on the Saints, I know they are good guys," Newton said on the Times' video. "So you can't really believe all what the media makes of it. But it's still, golly, why is this being mentioned? Like they say, where there's smoke there's fire. But I just can't understand it."
Sounds fake. I bet he was smiling when he said it.That goddamn thug used "golly" as an ejaculate.
No one knows media bullshit better.
http://blogs.charlotte.com/panthers/2012/03/cam-newton-surprised-he-was-saints-target.html (http://blogs.charlotte.com/panthers/2012/03/cam-newton-surprised-he-was-saints-target.html)
The findings in the league’s investigation, corroborated by multiple independent sources, conclusively established the following:
1. The Saints defensive team operated a pay-for-performance/bounty program, primarily funded by players, during the 2009, 2010, and 2011 seasons. Under that program, players regularly made cash “donations” to a pool, and were “fined” for mental errors, loafing, penalties, and the like. At least one assistant coach (defensive coordinator Gregg Williams) also occasionally contributed to the pool. There is no evidence that any club money was contributed to the program.
2. Payments were made for plays such as interceptions or fumble recoveries. All such payments are against league rules. Payments also were made for plays on which opposing players were injured. In addition, specific players were sometimes targeted. The investigation showed bounties being placed on four quarterbacks of opposing teams – Brett Favre, Cam Newton, Aaron Rodgers, and Kurt Warner. Multiple sources have confirmed that several players pledged funds toward bounties on specific opposing players, with defensive captain Jonathan Vilma offering $10,000 to any player who knocked Brett Favre out of the NFC Championship Game in 2010.
3. Coach Williams acknowledged that he designed and implemented the program with the assistance of certain defensive players. He said that he did so after being told by Saints Head Coach Sean Payton that his assignment was to make the defense “nasty.” Coach Williams described his role as overseeing record keeping, defining payout amounts, deciding on who received payouts, and distributing envelopes with cash to players who “earned” rewards.
4. In each of the 2009-2011 seasons, the Saints were one of the top five teams in the league in roughing the passer penalties. In 2009 and 2011, the Saints were also in the top five teams in unnecessary roughness penalties; in 2010, the Saints ranked sixth in the category. In the January 16, 2010 divisional playoff game against the Arizona Cardinals, Saints defensive players were assessed $15,000 in fines for fouls committed against opposing players. The following week, in the NFC Championship Game against the Minnesota Vikings, Saints defensive players were assessed $30,000 in fines for four separate illegal hits, several of which were directed against quarterback Brett Favre.
5. Coach Williams now acknowledges that when he was first questioned about this matter in early 2010 he intentionally misled NFL investigators and made no effort to stop the program after he became aware of the league’s investigation.
6. Coach Williams further confirmed that the program continued during the 2010 and 2011 seasons, and that he occasionally contributed funds to the pool in each of those seasons.
7. Assistant Head Coach/Defense Joe Vitt acknowledged that he was aware of the program in 2009-2011. He admitted that, when interviewed in 2010, he “fabricated the truth” to NFL investigators and denied that any pay-for-performance or bounty program existed at the Saints.
8. Coach Vitt said one of his primary roles was to monitor the activity of Coach Williams. This was based on the direction of Coach Payton, who apparently had less than full confidence in Coach Williams. Despite Coach Vitt’s knowledge of the bounty program, his understanding of the terms “knock-out” and “cart-off,” his witnessing Coach Williams handing out envelopes that he believed to contain cash, and his acknowledgement that the defensive meeting preceding the 2010 NFC Championship Game may have “got out of hand” with respect to Brett Favre, Coach Vitt claimed he never advised either Coach Payton or General Manager Mickey Loomis of the “pay-for-performance/bounty” program.
9. A summary prepared following a Saints preseason game included the statement, “1 Cart-off – Crank up the John Deer (sic) Tractor” in reference to a hit on an opposing player. Similar statements are reflected in prepared documents or slides in connection with other games in multiple seasons. A review of the game films confirms that opposing players were injured on the plays identified in the documents.
10. When interviewed in 2012, Sean Payton claimed to be entirely unaware of the program, a claim contradicted by others. Further, prior to the Saints’ opening game in 2011, Coach Payton received an email from a close associate that stated in part, “PS Greg Williams put me down for $5000 on Rogers (sic).” When shown the email during the course of the investigation, Coach Payton stated that it referred to a “bounty” on Green Bay quarterback Aaron Rodgers.
11. In early 2010, Mr. Loomis advised Coach Payton that the league office was investigating allegations concerning a bounty program. Coach Payton said that he met with his top two defensive assistants, Coach Williams and Coach Vitt, in advance of the interview with league investigators and told them, “Let’s make sure our ducks are in a row.” Remarkably, Coach Payton claimed that he never inquired of Coach Williams and Coach Vitt as to what happened in the interviews, never asked them if a “pay-for-performance” or bounty program was in fact in place, and never gave any instructions to discontinue such a program.
12. In January 2012, prior to the Saints’ first playoff game of the 2011 season, Coach Payton was advised by Mr. Loomis that the league office had reopened the investigation. Coach Payton made a cursory inquiry but took no action to ensure that any bounty program was discontinued.
13. General Manager Mickey Loomis was not present at meetings of the Saints defense at which bounties were discussed and was not aware of bounties being placed on specific players. Mr. Loomis became aware of the allegations regarding a bounty program no later than February 2010 when he was notified of the investigation into the allegations during a meeting with NFL Executive Vice President-Football Operations Ray Anderson. He was directed to ensure that any such program ceased immediately. By his own admission, Mr. Loomis did not do enough to determine if a pay-for-performance/bounty program existed or to end any such program that did exist.
14. Saints owner Tom Benson notified Mr. Loomis in January 2012 prior to the team’s participation in the playoffs that the league’s investigation had been reopened. Mr. Benson reiterated his position that a bounty program was unacceptable and instructed Mr. Loomis to ensure that if a bounty program existed at the Saints it would stop immediately. By his own admission, Mr. Loomis responded to this direction by making only cursory inquiries of Coaches Payton and Williams. He never issued instructions to end the bounty program to either the coaching staff or the players.
15. There is no evidence that Saints ownership had any knowledge of the pay-for-performance or bounty program. There is no evidence that any club funds were used for the program. Ownership made clear that it disapproved of the program, gave prompt and clear direction that it stop, and gave full and immediate cooperation to league investigators.
Not media. This is what the league determined as fact during their investigation:Boo fuckin' hoo.
10. When interviewed in 2012, Sean Payton claimed to be entirely unaware of the program, a claim contradicted by others. Further, prior to the Saints’ opening game in 2011, Coach Payton received an email from a close associate that stated in part, “PS Greg Williams put me down for $5000 on Rogers (sic).” When shown the email during the course of the investigation, Coach Payton stated that it referred to a “bounty” on Green Bay quarterback Aaron Rodgers.
"I'd like to again apologize wholeheartedly to the NFL, Coach Fisher, the entire Rams organization and all football fans for my actions. Furthermore, I apologize to the players of the NFL for my involvement as it is not a true reflection of my values as a father or coach, nor is it reflective of the great respect I have for this game and its core principle of sportsmanship. I accept full responsibility for my actions. I highly value the 23 years that I've spent in the NFL. I will continue to cooperate fully with the league and its investigation and I will focus my energies on serving as an advocate for both player safety and sportsmanship. I will do everything possible to re-earn the respect of my colleagues, the NFL and its players in hopes of returning to coaching in the future."
Today, Commissioner Goodell apprised us of the severe penalties facing our club, as proposed by the NFL.
We recognize our fans' concerns and we regret the uncertainty this episode has created for them. We are humbled by the support our organization has received from our fans today in the wake of this announcement, and we ask them to continue to stand with us, as they have done in the past, when both our team and our city have overcome greater adversities.
To our fans, the NFL and the rest of our league, we offer our sincere apology and take full responsibility for these serious violations.
It has always been the goal of the New Orleans Saints to create a model franchise and to impact our league in a positive manner.
There is no place for bounties in our league and we reiterate our pledge that this will never happen again.
Boo fuckin' hoo.
Get ready for two hand touch in the No Fun League in the near future.
Of those 15 points, the only thing I'll give you as problematic whatsoever is 8/9. Call me naive, but I believe the "cart-off" and "knock-out" shit is analogous to "The money was too much". Yes, there was probably more of a payout for huge hits than small tackles. The "cart-off" and "knock-out" shit, until I see the full context, seems to me to be rhetoric. If they said "rip his head off" would they be charged for attempted murder?
As for the rest of that, it has been said time and time again by at least a handful in every fucking organization in the NFL that that goes on at every single program.
Boo fuckin' hoo.
Get ready for two hand touch in the No Fun League in the near future.
Of those 15 points, the only thing I'll give you as problematic whatsoever is 8/9. Call me naive, but I believe the "cart-off" and "knock-out" shit is analogous to "The money was too much". Yes, there was probably more of a payout for huge hits than small tackles. The "cart-off" and "knock-out" shit, until I see the full context, seems to me to be rhetoric. If they said "rip his head off" would they be charged for attempted murder?
As for the rest of that, it has been said time and time again by at least a handful in every fucking organization in the NFL that that goes on at every single program.
I can tell you for a fact that years before this bountygate shit ever came to light, I was told about this same type of system (where players are made to pay into a pot for mistakes, and gets paid out for positive things) happens in minor league baseball locker rooms for Christ's sake. Not necessarily all on-the-field stuff, but a guy gets fined for stinking up the bathroom, and gets paid out for luring the big-tittied chick to the dugout asking for an autograph. And coaches were involved.
I know this will be lost on you, but every single post of yours in this thread sounds exactly like the Finebaum Show, circa February 1, 2002. Exactly.
"They hammerin' us for somethin' that goes on at EVER school, Pawwwl. This some damn BS. They pickin' on us Pawwwwl, 'cause we so damn good."
I know this will be lost on you, but every single post of yours in this thread sounds exactly like the Finebaum Show, circa February 1, 2002. Exactly.
"They hammerin' us for somethin' that goes on at EVER school, Pawwwl. This some damn BS. They pickin' on us Pawwwwl, 'cause we so damn good."
BOOM! Goes the dynamite.
Wouldn't say dynamite. More like a firecracker.
Boo fuckin' hoo.
Get ready for two hand touch in the No Fun League in the near future.
Of those 15 points, the only thing I'll give you as problematic whatsoever is 8/9. Call me naive, but I believe the "cart-off" and "knock-out" shit is analogous to "The money was too much". Yes, there was probably more of a payout for huge hits than small tackles. The "cart-off" and "knock-out" shit, until I see the full context, seems to me to be rhetoric. If they said "rip his head off" would they be charged for attempted murder?
As for the rest of that, it has been said time and time again by at least a handful in every fucking organization in the NFL that that goes on at every single program.
I can tell you for a fact that years before this bountygate shit ever came to light, I was told about this same type of system (where players are made to pay into a pot for mistakes, and gets paid out for positive things) happens in minor league baseball locker rooms for Christ's sake. Not necessarily all on-the-field stuff, but a guy gets fined for stinking up the bathroom, and gets paid out for luring the big-tittied chick to the dugout asking for an autograph. And coaches were involved.
I heard an interesting point, if it's true, made on the radio during my drive to work today:
There are multiple parties/entities suing the NFL for the lingering effects of head trauma/concussions. The thrust of the arguments is that the league did little to ensure the players' safety during their careers on the field. The punishment meted out to the Saints was more a statement on the league's attitude toward player safety, and the mitigating effect of said statement upon any pending damage claims, than a commentary on the Saints' activities.
I heard an interesting point, if it's true, made on the radio during my drive to work today:This is absolutely what's going on. Bobby Hebert's been trumpeting that since second one of the sanctions.
There are multiple parties/entities suing the NFL for the lingering effects of head trauma/concussions. The thrust of the arguments is that the league did little to ensure the players' safety during their careers on the field. The punishment meted out to the Saints was more a statement on the league's attitude toward player safety, and the mitigating effect of said statement upon any pending damage claims, than a commentary on the Saints' activities.
Saints cornerback Jabari Greer struck back at an NFL report Wednesday that included harsh punishments against Coach Sean Payton, general manager Mickey Loomis and others. The depiction of a rogue Saints defense seeking to injure opponents is false, Greer insisted.
"There's a picture that's being painted of us that we tried to injure our opponents and that we are not men of honor, not men with integrity, but instead men who are willing to do anything for a buck," Greer bristled. "That's not true. We are men of honor and we are men with integrity."
Greer conceded the Saints did have a pay for performance scheme from 2009 to 2011 that paid cash rewards for high impact plays like interceptions and fumble recoveries. Such a scheme runs afoul of the league's salary cap and collective bargaining agreement.
"We're not innocent in this situation," he acknowledged. "But we're not thugs, we're not mercenaries. OK, it was wrong. But to say we went out and tried to deliberately hurt our opponents and end their livelihood? That's not going to stand, I'm not going to stand for that."
Greer is not reacting to a straw man argument. In fact, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell's statement and the league's long press release Wednesday level the precise accusation Greer pointedly denies.
"Payments were made for plays such as interceptions or fumble recoveries," the statement reads. "Payments were also made for plays on which opposing players were injured."
Goodell said he was particularly disquieted by that finding.
"While I will not address player conduct at this time, I am profoundly troubled by the fact that players - including leaders among the defensive players - embraced this program so enthusiastically and participated with what appears to have been a deliberate lack of concern for the well-being of their fellow players," Goodell is quoted as saying. "While all club personnel are expected to play to win, they must not let that quest for victory so cloud their judgment that they willingly and willfully target their opponents and engage in unsafe and prohibited conduct intended to injure players."
I heard an interesting point, if it's true, made on the radio during my drive to work today:
There are multiple parties/entities suing the NFL for the lingering effects of head trauma/concussions. The thrust of the arguments is that the league did little to ensure the players' safety during their careers on the field. The punishment meted out to the Saints was more a statement on the league's attitude toward player safety, and the mitigating effect of said statement upon any pending damage claims, than a commentary on the Saints' activities.
Chizad you also need to take the black and gold glasses off. I have no problems with the Saints and do think the punishment was a bit rough. However, I think the crux of the thing with Peyton wasn't the fact that they so much did it, but the cover up and lying afterwards.
Chizad you also need to take the black and gold glasses off. I have no problems with the Saints and do think the punishment was a bit rough. However, I think the crux of the thing with Peyton wasn't the fact that they so much did it, but the cover up and lying afterwards.
They're sincere. They insist they never had any kind of "bounty" meant to intentionally hurt any player, and that they are offended by the idea of them trying to ruin careers, and the bullshit detector doesn't go off one bit.
Chizad you also need to take the black and gold glasses off. I have no problems with the Saints and do think the punishment was a bit rough. However, I think the crux of the thing with Peyton wasn't the fact that they so much did it, but the cover up and lying afterwards.Look, they probably could have been more forthcoming. Goodell obviously took it personal.
every team in professional sports
You can't wait, Saints owner Tom Benson. You've already wasted too much time. Sit down with quarterback Drew Brees. Sign him to a new contract. Right now.
The New Orleans Saints need quarterback Drew Brees in the fold long-term now more than ever.
Make him head coach and general manager of the Saints, at least for the 2012 season, while you try to recover from Bounty-gate.
I stand by what I wrote March 4: "This is not the time you want Drew Brees walking around with a franchise tag, placed there by a franchise that has been disgraced. You want him out there, wearing No. 9, selling the franchise, something he has done, on and off the field, the past six years."
What role should Brees fill?
Benson should hand the football side of his franchise to the face of the franchise.
Considering the circumstances, there has never been a time when one player, one voice, meant more to the immediate future of an NFL franchise.
And I include quarterback Peyton Manning during his heyday with the Indianapolis Colts.
At the moment, they say the Saints and Brees have a $5 million per year difference in discussions over a long-term contract.
So what.
This comes at a time NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell suspended New Orleans' Sean Payton for the 2012 season, in effect, handing the head coach a $6 million fine. Too harsh? I don't think so.
And what did Brees say?
"I am speechless," Brees posted on his Twitter account. "Sean Payton is a great coach and mentor. The best there is. I need to hear an explanation for this punishment."
In so many words, here's Goodell's explanation: He lied to me about his team's pay-for-performance bounty system, and he tried to get other coaches to lie as well. He continued to mislead and misrepresent what was going on in the organization.
That poses the question: Does Benson feel Payton should return as head coach?
I have no idea.
Personally, I'd like to see Payton return. Some say he should be banned forever. I say he deserves to pay a price for sins that will forever haunt him. If he chooses, and he's wanted, I say he should coach on.
Payton lived in a dream world. He told Jay Glazer of Fox Sports he was "stunned," that he had braced himself for a four-game suspension, not a year's suspension, that he thought linebackers coach Joe Vitt would take over as interim head coach while he sat out a short suspension. Goodell KO'd that idea by sidelining Vitt for six games.
No doubt Payton wanted another shot to stay with a quarterback that made him a better coach. And you can be sure he looked at Brees as the best man to carry the torch for someone who made him a better quarterback, a twosome tied at the hip on a journey to the Super Bowl.
With General Manager Mickey Loomis out of the picture for the first eight regular-season games of the 2012 season, head coach/quarterback Brees and his defensive coordinator, Steve Spagnuolo, could deal with the defensive chaos left in the bounty-gate fallout.
How many of the 22 to 27 defensive players the league said was involved in the scheme will return?
What about Saints linebacker Jonathan Vilma?
The league still is reviewing the case with the Players Association.
"While I will not address players conduct at this time, I am troubled by the fact players, including leaders among defensive players, embraced this program so enthusiastically and participated with what appears to have been a deliberate lack of concern for the well-being of fellow players," Goodell said.
At a time like this, a disgraced franchise couldn't find anyone more suited to clean up the mess than a guy like Drew Brees.
B. The bigger problem with this statement Chizad, and a problem I believe with society in general is....
JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE DOES IT....DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. It isn't a valid defense...it is an argument a teenager has with their parents.
A. This is your opinion, you do not know that to be true and as the esteemed counselor from the panhandle pointed out they weren't doing bounties for sacks and pancakes and stuff like that, and yes I am sure many NFL teams do that. They were out to permanently injure players...there is a HUGE difference in that.I do know this to be true. The players themselves on just about every team in the leagues has stated as such. Are they lying? Do they have a vested interested in criminalizing themselves to defend the New Orleans Saints? I've heard of these types of pools way before these allegations, and like I said, I've heard of them in other professional sports, at different levels. Trust me, they all do it. As for the intent to harm, everyone involved has denied it flat-out with a sincerity that I believe. Sorry, but I think the media-fueled hysteria has created this boogeyman.
B. The bigger problem with this statement Chizad, and a problem I believe with society in general is....Bullshit. This is not a kid getting caught smoking pot.
JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE DOES IT....DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. It isn't a valid defense...it is an argument a teenager has with their parents.
I do know this to be true. The players themselves on just about every team in the leagues has stated as such. Are they lying? Do they have a vested interested in criminalizing themselves to defend the New Orleans Saints? I've heard of these types of pools way before these allegations, and like I said, I've heard of them in other professional sports, at different levels. Trust me, they all do it. As for the intent to harm, everyone involved has denied it flat-out with a sincerity that I believe. Sorry, but I think the media-fueled hysteria has created this boogeyman.
Bullshit. This is not a kid getting caught smoking pot.
If literally every single team does it, how the FUCK can you justify arbitrarily punishing one with this extreme.
Every human on Earth takes shits, but we're going to give this guy lethal injection for the dump he just took.
It's asinine. More asinine than making a poop metaphor.
Look, they probably could have been more forthcoming.
I maintain that when they were asking them about this bountygate shit, that they denied that there was any kind of system to intentionally hurt offensive players on opposing teams, which I genuinely believe just as much as I genuinely believe that Auburn never had diddly shit to do with a pay for play scandal with Cam Newton.
I mean, in the history of the NFL no head coach has ever been suspended one game. And they suspend Payton a whole fucking season? For this?
The Real Outrage Of The Saints Bounty Scandal
This is an offseason edition of the NFL roundtable, a partnership between Deadspin and Slate. For more roundtable goodness, go back and read every entry from the 2011 season, from the preseason to the Super Bowl.
Lost in all the outrage over the New Orleans Saints' bounty program is a conversation about money and what it means to professional athletes. The sums that we've been hearing about—anywhere in the range of $1,000 to $10,000 to knock out opposing players—sound substantial to the typical American. But the average NFL player makes just short of $2 million, while the median salary is around $800,000. Players are paid only during the season, which means they earn 1/17th of their salary every week. For a player making the average salary that's around $120,000 a week. For someone making the median, it's close to $50,000.
Roman Harper, the Saints safety who's been known to dish out kill shots, was in the last year of his rookie deal in 2009. That was a four-year, $2.5 million contract, well under the average NFL salary. But after the 2010 season, Harper signed a new four-year deal for $16 million guaranteed. This is money to NFL players. And it's this kind of cash that will motivate a defensive player to decapitate a quarterback, not a few grand under the table.
Non-contract bonuses are common in the locker room. Not every reward is based on aggression. Some have to do with composure. If you get cheap-shotted and you don't retaliate, you get a handful of cash. If you cause a fumble in practice, you get paid. (And if you're the fumbler, you pay up.) If you make a tackle inside the 20-yard line on a kickoff, you get paid. If you're the first one on the kickoff coverage team to cross the opposite goal line, you get paid. The money breaks up the monotony of a drab work week by rewarding a player for making a play he was trying to make anyway, because it's his job.
This is life for a guy inside the NFL bubble, a world where extreme violence is rewarded with a paycheck. Before he got money to play the game, this violence was rewarded with pats on the back, special treatment, undeserved grades, scholarships, women, and status. There has always been a reward system in place for playing the game viciously. In the NFL, above all else, that reward is keeping your job.
Did Gregg Williams, by allegedly offering up cash for violent hits, make the game more dangerous? Not any more than the Pop Warner coach who grabs a kid by his facemask and tells him he hits like a sissy. Not any more than an ESPN correspondent who speculates about Michael Vick's readiness to return to action following a concussion. And certainly not any more than Roger Goodell, who regularly implies that he can make the game safe by changing the rules.
Still, it is a coach's league. A player only steps on the field if his coach allows it. And there are certainly plenty of tough-guy coaches like Gregg Williams who beat their chests and think of little mind games to get their players foaming at the mouth to go hit someone. But once you step on the field, everything else fades away, including the pre-game speech of your overzealous coach. When you make the choice to put on your helmet, there's going to be a bounty of one kind or another on your head. No locker room speech can change that.
I find it unlikely that a player would focus on injuring an opponent in defiance of the referees on the field, the league office that reviews every hit, and the peers to whom he must answer every day and who don't take kindly to cheap shots. No matter what cash they dispensed, the Saints didn't play the game differently than any other team once they hit the field. These peripheral reward systems are pebbles around a boulder, and that boulder is rolling downhill.
Besides, in a game where 100 percent of the players get injured, why does it matter to us how they're injured? The real outrage here isn't the bounties and the cart-off hits and knockout blows; it's the league office's need to sanctify all the bloodshed and ugliness with well-drawn rules and regulations. But bounties or no bounties, the game maims the men who play it. Yet the NFL stays busy selling the myth that football would be safe so long as the guys on the field played with a little integrity. Now where is the integrity in that?
Lost in all the outrage over the New Orleans Saints' bounty program is a conversation about money and what it means to professional athletes. The sums that we've been hearing about—anywhere in the range of $1,000 to $10,000 to knock out opposing players—sound substantial to the typical American. But the average NFL player makes just short of $2 million, while the median salary is around $800,000.
Non-contract bonuses are common in the locker room. Not every reward is based on aggression. Some have to do with composure. If you get cheap-shotted and you don't retaliate, you get a handful of cash. If you cause a fumble in practice, you get paid. (And if you're the fumbler, you pay up.)
Did Gregg Williams, by allegedly offering up cash for violent hits, make the game more dangerous?
I find it unlikely that a player would focus on injuring an opponent in defiance of the referees on the field, the league office that reviews every hit, and the peers to whom he must answer every day and who don't take kindly to cheap shots.
A. This is your opinion, you do not know that to be true and as the esteemed counselor from the panhandle pointed out they weren't doing bounties for sacks and pancakes and stuff like that, and yes I am sure many NFL teams do that. They were out to permanently injure players...there is a HUGE difference in that.
B. The bigger problem with this statement Chizad, and a problem I believe with society in general is....
JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE DOES IT....DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. It isn't a valid defense...it is an argument a teenager has with their parents.
Not relevant to the matter at hand. Bounties are illegal whether they are for $1 or $5,000,000,000,000,000,000.It is completely relevant. You're just not getting it, apparently.
In addition to this, the mention of how paltry the bounty amounts are suggests that there is no incentive for these players. These players are naturally aggressive; Ray Lewis wants to knock the QB's head off in every play regardless of what he gets paid to do it.
If that's the case, then why have a bounty system in the first place? Why implement something illegal if it's going to have absolutely no effect, and the players are still going to gun for other players just like they would in any other game? It makes no sense for coaches and players to start something like a bounty system if they truly aren't paying attention to it and don't care about it.
The money breaks up the monotony of a drab work week by rewarding a player for making a play he was trying to make anyway, because it's his job
Common or not, they're still now allowed. Speeding is common, but try telling that to the next officer who writes you a speeding ticket.So give the speeder a $40 ticket or whatever. Not the fucking death penalty, while a Maserati jets through a stop sign at 120 MPH behind you.
There was a bounty for taking people out of the game due to injury, and even one specifically for causing a player to be carted off due to injury. It wasn't simply for a "violent hit." Deadspin definitely did spin that one.Pppffffffttttt.
Did they make the game more dangerous? You tell me. Anthony Hargrove gets a late hit on Favre in 2009, resulting in an injury to his ankle; Favre turns out to be a named target in said bounties. Not enough proof? Let's look at the number of first downs given up via penalty prior to 2009, and during the bounty system from 2009 - 2011:
2006: 18
2007: 12
2008: 19
2009: 24
2010: 29
2011: 38
The three year average from 2006 - 2008 was 16.3. After the bounty system was in place in 2009-2011? Three year average is 30.3, almost double what it was before. Nah, the game's not more dangerous with an increase in helmet to helmet hits, late hits, crack back blocks, chop blocks, etc. These rules are silly in the first place, and they already get violated, so what's the big deal about an increase in illegal hits intended to cart someone off the field?
The number of penalties that they incurred from 2009 and onward suggest otherwise. Not to mention the actions of Anthony Hargrove, who ecstatically screamed, "Favre is out of the game! Favre is done! Favre is done!" after he injured another player on a late hit.I have never heard these accusations until the whole "Bountygate" term was coined. Let's see who had the most late hits from 2006-2008. Surely whatever team that is, was full of bloodlusting thugs hell-bent on injuring their peers.
Nooo, players would never disregard referees and then be happy about the results of their illegal in-game actions. Never.
Actually everyone in this thread gets it save for you Chizad. We get it ....you are a sidewalk Saints fan. I am glad you have jumped on board of your new town's team.
However if you cannot see the difference between a reward for a sack and a reward for breaking an opposing players leg, I can't help you. Again you need to put the cocaine down.
Thank you for saying this so I won't have to retype it.How many times in how many ways do I have to say that I truly believe that the players did not have a system set up to deliberately seriously injure other players and ruin their careers. Sorry, but I take the players for their words. I happen to know one of the Saints defensive players quite personally, and he has told me it's a bunch of bullshit. All of the defensive players who have spoken publicly on it have corroborated this.
Defending something you truly believe in an objective manner with facts to support it is one thing.
Having a homer induced bias and simply trying to find a convenient way to support the pre-established bias is another.
How many times in how many ways do I have to say that I truly believe that the players did not have a system set up to deliberately seriously injure other players and ruin their careers. Sorry, but I take the players for their words. I happen to know one of the Saints defensive players quite personally, and he has told me it's a bunch of bullshit. All of the defensive players who have spoken publicly on it have corroborated this.
Yes, there was a pool, which is against the rules. If you find the pool, in and of itself, to be abhorrent, then you're completely naive A) for thinking what basically amounts to gambling on the level of Battle of the Crown is reprehensible and B) for thinking that this only happens in New Orleans. But I believe the players themselves when they say they are offended that people are accusing them of intentionally trying to harm other players.
But you "just know." Because the media told you so. Sorry, but I've heard that before. Wasn't credible then, isn't credible now.
Yes, there was a pool, which is against the rules. If you find the pool, in and of itself, to be abhorrent, then you're completely naive A) for thinking what basically amounts to gambling on the level of Battle of the Crown is reprehensible and B) for thinking that this only happens in New Orleans. But I believe the players themselves when they say they are offended that people are accusing them of intentionally trying to harm other players.
Off Topic: QB Drew Brees is now on the market as a free agent after the Saints Admin. decided not to sign him to a longterm deal that he was wanting.
How many times in how many ways do I have to say that I truly believe that the players did not have a system set up to deliberately seriously injure other players and ruin their careers.
How many times in how many ways do I have to say that I truly believe that the players did not have a system set up to deliberately seriously injure other players and ruin their careers. Sorry, but I take the players for their words. I happen to know one of the Saints defensive players quite personally, and he has told me it's a bunch of bullshit. All of the defensive players who have spoken publicly on it have corroborated this.
Yes, there was a pool, which is against the rules. If you find the pool, in and of itself, to be abhorrent, then you're completely naive A) for thinking what basically amounts to gambling on the level of Battle of the Crown is reprehensible and B) for thinking that this only happens in New Orleans. But I believe the players themselves when they say they are offended that people are accusing them of intentionally trying to harm other players.
But you "just know." Because the media told you so. Sorry, but I've heard that before. Wasn't credible then, isn't credible now.
It is completely relevant. You're just not getting it, apparently.
So give the speeder a $40 ticket or whatever. Not the fucking death penalty, while a Maserati jets through a stop sign at 120 MPH behind you.
You honestly believe that the defensive players are intentionally giving up big yardage penalties and putting games at risk (remember, a Superbowl = $$$$$$$$) so that they can get a thousand dollars for hurting someone?
How many times in how many ways do I have to say that I truly believe that the players did not have a system set up to deliberately seriously injure other players and ruin their careers.
Dude...they admitted to making payouts for "cart off" hits. How else do you explain that portion of the bounty system? They planned to tell their opponent so many jokes that he would be doubled over laughing and wouldn't be able to walk off the field without assistance?
That's actually the only part of Chizad's rant that has any merit. You don't have to intend to injure someone to knock them out of a game, or have them carted off. You can be carted off with no career threatening injury, and due to a completely legal hit. Still, that argument is meaningless in the big picture.
The amount of the bounty makes no difference to the players. There's a bottle of Maker's Mark at stake in the March Madness tourney. Although my bracket couldn't win a 6 oz. bottle of delicious coke product, just the fact that there's something on the line makes me want to win. First time I went to Victory Land years ago, I watched the puppies run and figured out how to pick a pup and place a bet. The first couple of races I watched before I placed the bet, it looked pretty cool. Hey, those dogs are fast. I plunked down $2.00 on #6 to win. I thought I was going to have a heart attack when the gates flew open and #6 came by me in the lead. He finished 148th. Slow bastard.Gets it.
By the way, after that I was let in on a foolproof way to pick a dog. When they parade them in front of the fans prior to the race, pick the one that stops to take a piss or a mowanga dump in front of hundreds of people. He's lighter and loose. He ain't skeered.
That's actually the only part of Chizad's rant that has any merit. You don't have to intend to injure someone to knock them out of a game, or have them carted off. You can be carted off with no career threatening injury, and due to a completely legal hit. Still, that argument is meaningless in the big picture.Then what's your big beef? I'm genuinely wondering?
Clearly, we were lied to. We investigated this back in 2010, we were told it was not happening, it continued for another two years until we got credible evidence late in the 2011 season and we were able to identify significant information that verified from multiple sources that this was going on for a three-year period.
A combination of elements made this matter particularly unusual and egregious. When there is targeting of players for injury and cash rewards over a three-year period, the involvement of the coaching staff, and three years of denials and willful disrespect of the rules, a strong and lasting message must be sent that such conduct is totally unacceptable and has no place in the game.
The only thing I've been saying is that A) Despite the manufactured outrage du jour that the media is perpetuating, you can't empirically prove they organized a system with intent to harm other players, and B) given A, the punishment was entirely too harsh for the crime.
So, they set up a bounty system with incentives for completing certain objectives, but no one goes out there with the intent to complete any of the objectives required for a bounty?
It would be different if the coaches came in the locker room after a game and retroactively gave rewards for actions that they deemed, in hindsight, to be worthy of recognition. Still in violation of NFL rules, but different from the bounty system we have here.
The bounty objectives were known prior to the games; they were shown in pre-game slides. If a player is not going to have the intent to complete a bounty objective, such as causing someone to be carted off the field, then what's the purpose of the bounty system? Why risk your ass for an illegal bounty system that, according to you and Chad, doesn't actually motivate the players to do anything intentionally?
As I stated before I also think the lying played a HUGE part in the severeness of the punishment.These two motivations are diametrically opposed. "Oh, the humanity! We can't just let them run amok, leaving disfigured bodies in their wake! But if they would have just admitted it up front, it would have been NBD."
As Goodell said on NFL Network:
Goodell also said in his official statement:
These two motivations are diametrically opposed. "Oh, the humanity! We can't just let them run amok, leaving disfigured bodies in their wake! But if they would have just admitted it up front, it would have been NBD."
I totally agree that hurting Goodell's wittle ego is going to get you ten billion times the punishment as, say, blatantly cheating by videotaping other teams. Just don't lie to daddy, and all is forgiven.
That, and the fact that he's covering his ass from future litigation, as already discussed as well. This is Goodell's backdated dissociation letter. He wants to be able to say, "Look man, we're trying to protect these players. Look how I crippled this program because I thought there was a chance they might have been trying to hurt people."
Gets it.
Then what's your big beef? I'm genuinely wondering?
Most people that think this punishment is appropriate or even that it wasn't enough (which is patently absurd), are all acting like their poor sensibilities and their entire world view has been crushed by these mean old thugs that are intentionally causing injury to other players. Their whole point is there should be zero tolerance for these ruffians trying to end the careers of their peers. Everyone calling me naive is doing so because they "know" that these players were trying to injure other players.
So what exactly is your beef if you agree that this was not the case? Just that they had an "office pool" at all? That warrants the scorched earth penalty they just handed down? I get that that was against the rules, and I get that they probably should have been more forthcoming that it was going on. The only thing I've been saying is that A) Despite the manufactured outrage du jour that the media is perpetuating, you can't empirically prove they organized a system with intent to harm other players, and B) given A, the punishment was entirely too harsh for the crime.
You really don't get the distinction? I didn't say no intent to collect the bounty. A DE can have a clear objective of knocking the QB out of the game (and I think most do, bounty or not), without having any intent to inflict a particular injury, or use an illegal tactic or hit.
When the bounty objective is as specific as requiring that the player be carted off the field, then yes, you do require the intent to injure the player if you intend to collect the bounty. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that there are circumstances in which an uninjured player gets carted off of the field.You're thinking of the pool as it's own separate game. As the central driving force for their actions. I guaranfuckingtee you that they'd rather not get penalized for a late hit or a helmet to helmet than than to win the pot. Think of it more as fantasy football, or something. What's going to happen on the field is going to happen by the field. Afterwards, it's "Oh yeah, I intercepted that pass, that's $1,000 from the pot". He's not thinking as he's jumping through the air trying to get the football "Man, I'd better get this so I can get win that pot!" No, he's playing the game he's paid to play. Everything else is supplemental and passive.
Does that mean that the hit has to be illegal? No, but if a player has the intent to injure a player to such a drastic degree that they can't walk off on their own accord, then they are more likely to resort to illegal hits. Afterall, illegal hits have been made illegal due to the fact that they cause such drastic injuries.
Sure, you could attempt to argue that no player would ever attempt illegal hits, but that they'd only try to satisfy bounty objectives with legal hits. Nonetheless, one bounty objective was to injure a player. That's not part of the game and should not be acceptable.
Yes, injuries occur and are part of the game, but they should occur as a possible consequence of a full contact sport; they should not occur as the consequence of someone's bad intentions. As Goodell said, intentional targeting of players for the purpose of injuring them should never occur.
When the bounty objective is as specific as requiring that the player be carted off the field, then yes, you do require the intent to injure the player if you intend to collect the bounty. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that there are circumstances in which an uninjured player gets carted off of the field.
Does that mean that the hit has to be illegal? No, but if a player has the intent to injure a player to such a drastic degree that they can't walk off on their own accord, then they are more likely to resort to illegal hits. Afterall, illegal hits have been made illegal due to the fact that they cause such drastic injuries.
Sure, you could attempt to argue that no player would ever attempt illegal hits, but that they'd only try to satisfy bounty objectives with legal hits. Nonetheless, one bounty objective was to injure a player. That's not part of the game and should not be acceptable.
Yes, injuries occur and are part of the game, but they should occur as a possible consequence of a full contact sport; they should not occur as the consequence of someone's bad intentions. As Goodell said, intentional targeting of players for the purpose of injuring them should never occur.
I will say it again....There is a world of difference between
Sacking a QB for a 20 yard loss = $5000 bounty
VS.
Hitting a QB with the intent of trying to take him out of the game = $5000 bounty
You're thinking of the pool as it's own separate game. As the central driving force for their actions. I guaranfuckingtee you that they'd rather not get penalized for a late hit or a helmet to helmet than than to win the pot.
. . .
Afterwards, it's "Oh yeah, I intercepted that pass, that's $1,000 from the pot". He's not thinking as he's jumping through the air trying to get the football "Man, I'd better get this so I can get win that pot!" No, he's playing the game he's paid to play.
Under the rules, both are equally illegal.Gets it. (This aspect at least)
If no bounty is being paid, and Stud DE has the attitude and intent of "I want to hit the QB from the blind side with max force each and every opportunity I get" and plays 100% towards that goal every play acceptable?
Under the rules, both are equally illegal.
If no bounty is being paid, and Stud DE has the attitude and intent of "I want to hit the QB from the blind side with max force each and every opportunity I get" and plays 100% towards that goal every play acceptable?
Gets it. (This aspect at least)
Then I ask, yet again, what was the purpose of creating the bounty system in the first place?
Bounty systems are illegal. If the paltry amount of money that they were going to receive was not going to motivate them to achieve the specific bounty objectives that were created, then why have the bounty system? Why inform players of the bounty objectives before the game if it wasn't going to affect their style of play or intentions during the game? Why risk sanctions from the league for an activity that does absolutely nothing for the team?
You will recall that Williams created this bounty system upon Payton's request to make the defense nastier. So he created a bounty system that was supposed to change the way that the defense played, but now you're telling me that this wasn't the intent of the bounty system? That players weren't going into games with the intent to achieve specific bounty objectives? That players went onto the field and played the same way that they did before the bounty system? That the bounty system changed nothing and did nothing, so the team stupidly instituted an illegal activity for no reason, and with no resulting effect, whatsoever? That the team's penalties per season skyrocketed during the existence of the bounty system due to sheer coincidence?
Bovine feces.
Under the rules, both are equally illegal.
If no bounty is being paid, and Stud DE has the attitude and intent of "I want to hit the QB from the blind side with max force each and every opportunity I get" and plays 100% towards that goal every play acceptable?
Ok so you are agreeing that the bounty system is illegal. Therefore there should have been a punishment? What should it have been?Yes. I never denied that the "office pool" like system is against the NFL rules. I conceded as much multiple times in this thread. It also happens in literally every locker room in the NFL. I don't have to be a mind reader to know this. I believe the testament of the dozens and dozens of players from Seattle to Miami and everywhere in between, who have zero reason to defend New Orleans, who have said as much.
What should the punishment be? To you, apparently it's perfectly acceptable to issue a $5 ticket for jaywalking for everyone else in the free world, but if those motherfuckers in New Orleans do it, they'd better spend at least 10 years in the pen. You want to live in a vacuum where "Everyone else is doing is not an excuse". Fuck me for thinking equity should come into play at some point when you have something that goes on everywhere and you decide to single out one team and decapitate them for it.
What should the punishment be? To you, apparently it's perfectly acceptable to issue a $5 ticket for jaywalking for everyone else in the free world, but if those motherfuckers in New Orleans do it, they'd better spend at least 10 years in the pen. You want to live in a vacuum where "Everyone else is doing is not an excuse". Fuck me for thinking equity should come into play at some point when you have something that goes on everywhere and you decide to single out one team and decapitate them for it.
Again you only give a shit cause you like the team.
By the way, just saw where last year the Saints had the 5th most personal fouls, and and since 2009 had the sixth most.
If they were getting paid specifically to hurt players, why would they not be #1?
Shouldn't those five "dirtier" teams be investigated if that's our barometer?
Well technically they do get paid for the sack already its called their salary. The problem I have with it becomes trying to intentionally harm another professional, which based on the severity could stop them from making their livelihood.
I wasn't saying that I agreed with having a bounty either way, I was just saying there is a big difference.
Having a bet with your friends to see who can get laid the most, vs using roofies to win said bet.
It's not worth defending anymore. You guys are out for blood like AsThePlainsBurn, and you won't accept anything less than "They're dirty cheating thugs getting paid to break the knees of their opponents".
It's not worth defending anymore. You guys are out for blood like AsThePlainsBurn, and you won't accept anything less than "They're dirty cheating thugs getting paid to break the knees of their opponents".
I bet Nick Fairley was too. That's what the media told us to believe. I mean, he was flagged for late hits and roughing the passer, so it must be true!
You'd think some of you would have learned a little critical thinking from the lynch mob mentality Auburn was the victim of, but apparently not.
The fact that these pools happen everywhere are inconsequential, because we're talking about New Orleans doing it, dammit.
All the players still saying they are appalled that anyone would believe that they had an organized system to intentionally injure anyone, are filthy liars.
Maybe it's not the world against New Orleans, but this wouldn't happen in New England or Dallas.
I'm done.
Tell your pure as the driven snow coach not to lie about it or endorsing it and maybe he woulnt be out 7 million this year.
Just sayin.
So, just judging by the few games I watched this season, I'm assuming it's safe to say that Roman Harper didn't receive a red fucking cent of a bounty?Doesn't mean he didn't try...I'm sure Steve Smith was on the DB Hit List.
It's not worth defending anymore. You guys are out for blood like AsThePlainsBurn, and you won't accept anything less than "They're dirty cheating thugs getting paid to break the knees of their opponents".
I bet Nick Fairley was too. That's what the media told us to believe. I mean, he was flagged for late hits and roughing the passer, so it must be true!
You'd think some of you would have learned a little critical thinking from the lynch mob mentality Auburn was the victim of, but apparently not.
The fact that these pools happen everywhere are inconsequential, because we're talking about New Orleans doing it, dammit.
All the players still saying they are appalled that anyone would believe that they had an organized system to intentionally injure anyone, are filthy liars.
Maybe it's not the world against New Orleans, but this wouldn't happen in New England or Dallas.
I'm done.
All the players still saying they are appalled that anyone would believe that they had an organized system to intentionally injure anyone, are filthy liars.I'm not calling anyone a liar, but the Commish says he has proof, and I certainly don't hear Payton or the Saints screaming from the rooftops this isn't fair. So logically I tend to think he has proof but I forgot you can read minds. The difference in the Auburn thing and you know damn well, there was no proof and from the very beginning Auburn denied allegations. The NCAA never claimed they had proof, they did an investigation nothing was found.
The fact that these pools happen everywhere are inconsequential, because we're talking about New Orleans doing it, dammit.Again I am not saying they don't happen, I also don't know that I believe they happen everywhere. However, it also was never talked about, and typically was never used as motivation by the COACHES but among the players themselves. The NFL was looking to stop this practice, New Orleans got caught and was made an example of.
Your reasoning and logic are not very advanced. Many of the analogies you draw are apples to oranges. You're using ridiculous hypothetical extremes to make your points.
Attempting find those hypotheticals (conjecture really) and apples to oranges comparisons to support a pre established bias is the weakest and most feeble attempt to argue a side.
The objective here should be to get to the correct answer, the truth and what honestly happened. It is NOT start out with a position that you WANT to believe because of being a homer and then finding any inkling of info to support it. It's a very backwards way to solve a situation such as this.
And again, it doesn't matter what someone thinks or says any other teams are doing. It's mutually exclusive of the fact that the Saints did it. And it doesn't make it right either.
Sure Chad, the NY Times and ESPN slandered Auburn and Cam/Nick in the papers and on TV, but I like to think the NFL Commissioner is not = Joe Schad, Thayer Evans, Pete Thamel, Brooks. Goodell doesn't give a shit about headlines or a scoop. He's an asshole and it's his job to lay down the hammer. Was SOME of this punitive? Sure. I bet it won't happen again under his watch though. When you do the crime.....
What's so bad is, wait to see Chizad's reaction when Brees is in the wind (pun intended),
What's so bad is, wait to see Chizad's reaction when Brees is in the wind (pun intended), and a plethora of player suspensions ranging from 4 games up is handed down. The Saint's may be lucky to win a game this coming season. No actual head coach, no star QB, defense full of back ups. This could get much uglier. And Chizad, I'm already on record (in response in another thread to Kaos who does actually hate the Saints) as not giving a shit one way or the other about them.:pwnd:
And Chizad, when you're the ONLY one trying to argue the side you've chosen, and are using flawed logic, conjecture, and childlike "everybody does it" defenses, you need to back up and take a second look.
:pwnd:
Dude, Chad doesn't give a fuck what you or I think at the moment. He's going to see Jimmy Buffett this weekend!! Hi Five!
Where is Brees going? He's been franchised for the 2012 season.
The best and worst part of actually having a stance and trying to argue it on Tigersx? Only 1 or 2 people really attempt to combat your argument, and the rest are just assholes who enjoy pissing people off.Bitch...get back to planting evidence and Auburn shirts.
The best and worst part of actually having a stance and trying to argue it on Tigersx? Only 1 or 2 people really attempt to combat your argument, and the rest are just assholes who enjoy pissing people off.
The best and worst part of actually having a stance and trying to argue it on Tigersx? Only 1 or 2 people really attempt to combat your argument, and the rest are just assholes who enjoy pissing people off.(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/287/3/6/troll_face_mot_1_by_ddfawulguy-d30qucm.png)
All the other forums do it...so it's ok.
Where is Brees going? He's been franchised for the 2012 season.I didn't want to ruin the fantasy.
The biggest question concerning the 2012 Saints season is how many players on the defensive side of things will be suspended and for how long. If they are no longer on the Saints, will they still be suspended?
With Spags as the new DC, he very could easily move into the role of Head Coach for the year. I think Brees has enough concept of the offense that he can run it with help from Carmichael.
Am I pissed about what the NFL did? Yes. But I also realize that if your boss tells you to knock some shit off, and you keep doing it, you're going to get the hammer dropped on you.
I think the offense is good enough to win 4-6 games by itself, assuming that they get decimated on the defensive side of things with suspensions.
I didn't want to ruin the fantasy.
If you just have to make it personal to feel redeemed, I'll help you out...With you, Token nailed it.FUCK DA DIRTY ASSED SAINTS!!!!
Feel better now? It's personal, and all about hating the Saints. It has to almost feel like the Saints are the victims now, like they did nothing wrong, huh?
The best and worst part of actually having a stance and trying to argue it on Tigersx? Only 1 or 2 people really attempt to combat your argument, and the rest are just assholes who enjoy pissing people off.
With you, Token nailed it.
You agree with my main point, that the hysteria over the intent to harm is largely manufactured, and impossible to prove. And then in the same breath emphatically can't state enough that you couldn't disagree with me more and that the Saints deserved worse.
You've chosen to cherry pick from my words, and haven't read and/or understood them all, or you'd get it.Or maybe if you made any sense.
Still think people are latching on to the "carted off thing" and taking it out of context to create an outrage du jour.
Or maybe if you made any sense.
Sans "cart off" hits, the bounty system is still illegal. But, sans "cart off" hits, the punishment would have not been as severe.
VV cannot under any circumstances distinguish between the intent to knock the fuck out of someone with a perfectly legal hit and intentionally using dirty tactics or taking aim at certain areas of the body with intent to inflict an INJURY. In his mind, and in most it seems, this "cart off hit" bounty means you must be trying to INJURE someone. To him, it's all the same. And that's my point. Perception is reality.
The best and worst part of actually having a stance and trying to argue it on Tigersx? Only 1 or 2 people really attempt to combat your argument, and the rest are just assholes who enjoy pissing people off.
The best and worst part of actually having a stance and trying to argue it on Tigersx? Only 1 or 2 people really attempt to combat your argument, and the rest are just assholes who enjoy pissing people off.
I understand that players can be injured by perfectly legal hits. I understand that a player doesn't need to have the intent to injure someone just because he hit him hard.
But, when you have a system in place which specifically rewards injury by paying a player who causes their opponent to require assistance getting off the field clear that this was Williams' intent for the system, and based upon the drastic increase in penalties, he got the result he wanted: players intentionally trying to satisfy bounty objectives.
Exactly what Ive been trying to say!
Then why didn't you just say it already?
With you, Token nailed it.The reason they got in so much trouble was because of the bounty system and the lies, not the intent to harm.
You agree with my main point, that the hysteria over the intent to harm is largely manufactured, and impossible to prove. And then in the same breath emphatically can't state enough that you couldn't disagree with me more and that the Saints deserved worse.
Exactly what Ive been trying to say!
The reason they got in so much trouble was because of the bounty system and the lies, not the intent to harm.
A combination of elements made this matter particularly unusual and egregious. When there is targeting of players for injury and cash rewards over a three-year period, the involvement of the coaching staff, and three years of denials and willful disrespect of the rules, a strong and lasting message must be sent that such conduct is totally unacceptable and has no place in the game.
Hey, I just came in from out of town. What are you guys talking about?
:blink:
As long as we agree that Chad is a homer idiot, then the world is at peace.
I'm well aware that we're past the point where everything I say will be rejected as barking lunacy, and won't be considered rationally for one second.
But I feel like wasting my proverbial breath.
So if everyone accepts that Gregg Williams was the mastermind, and that he did this everywhere else he's been, and there are even more blatant accounts of him doing this at other programs (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington)), and he is no longer associated with the New Orleans Saints, then how can you scorch the Earth in New Orleans, and do absolutely nothing to Jacksonville or Washington, or even Buffalo for that matter?
So if everyone accepts that Gregg Williams was the mastermind, and that he did this everywhere else he's been, and there are even more blatant accounts of him doing this at other programs (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington)), and he is no longer associated with the New Orleans Saints, then how can you scorch the Earth in New Orleans, and do absolutely nothing to Jacksonville or Washington, or even Buffalo for that matter?
While NFL staff has interviewed people in connection with public allegations of bounty programs at other clubs, no evidence was established showing that the programs at other clubs involved targeting opposing players or rewarding players for injuring an opponent. Commissioner (Roger) Goodell emphasized that if additional information is brought to his attention that discloses bounties offered for injuring specific opposing players, he will revisit the matter to consider additional discipline.
I'm well aware that we're past the point where everything I say will be rejected as barking lunacy, and won't be considered rationally for one second.
But I feel like wasting my proverbial breath.
So if everyone accepts that Gregg Williams was the mastermind, and that he did this everywhere else he's been, and there are even more blatant accounts of him doing this at other programs (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington)), and he is no longer associated with the New Orleans Saints, then how can you scorch the Earth in New Orleans, and do absolutely nothing to Jacksonville or Washington, or even Buffalo for that matter?
I didn't want to ruin the fantasy.My skreets are telling me that the Saints aren't willing to do a longterm deal with Brees, in the neighborhood of $20 Million + per year. Brees' agent is also Payton Manning's agent...and Brees deserves to make more money than the deal that Denver and Manning struck a few days ago. He also isn't going to sign the "franchise player" papers.
He's 100% here in 2012, and I will be shocked if he isn't resigned very soon. And I've said that I acknowledge that the not being forthcoming about it is what did us in.
Still think the punishment is excessive. Still think people are latching on to the "carted off thing" and taking it out of context to create an outrage du jour.
Agree to disagree and moving on.
Until some other club has a disgruntledShockey...er uh, player come out and snitch them out, NO will be the only one hit.
Also, Payton, and Williams are sacrificial lambs, for the good of the league. Goodell isn't going to be looking hard to gut half the league's staffs and rosters. He's made a statement, and everybody else is expected to get the message.
Blame the participants first, the snitch second, and Payton for not nipping it i the bud when warned, and lying when he knew there was an electronic paper trail.
I have no doubt this goes on everywhere, but think about it - these guys make enough money. The sport is already extremely violent. Personal fouls happen every game. Every player is desperately trying to win their division so that they can compete for the Super Bowl. Did they really need any extra incentive to take out the opposition's players? Did Williams really need to offer money for that to happen? Hell - it could have been as easy as Williams going up to one player and suggesting it.
Williams - "Hey Player X that starts but only gets paid $700k/year. We really need this win to make the playoffs and that Player Y over there is killing us. Make sure he doesn't play another snap."
I'm well aware that we're past the point where everything I say will be rejected as barking lunacy, and won't be considered rationally for one second.
But I feel like wasting my proverbial breath.
So if everyone accepts that Gregg Williams was the mastermind, and that he did this everywhere else he's been, and there are even more blatant accounts of him doing this at other programs (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington (http://espn.go.com/blog/nfceast/post/_/id/37375/what-gregg-williams-did-in-washington)), and he is no longer associated with the New Orleans Saints, then how can you scorch the Earth in New Orleans, and do absolutely nothing to Jacksonville or Washington, or even Buffalo for that matter?
He becomes human when we fuckin' take out that outside ACL. We need to decide on how many times we can beat Frank Gore's head. We need to decide how many times we can bullrush and we can fuckin' put Vernon Davis's ankles over the pile.
Yeah...
Someone's going to post this, so let me be the first.
I was seeing this touted as the "smoking gun" that was undeniable proof that the punishments were justified.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhnn9kbqQUA#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhnn9kbqQUA#ws)
In all honesty, after watching 90% of the video, I was ready to get on here and say that I still didn't see how this was as big a deal as it was being made out to be. That a version of this goes on in every NFL locker room, and if you were shocked by it, it was probably because you've never spent time in one.
The last 30 seconds of the video is where I finally came around to at least seeing that Williams was definitely over the proverbial line.
:facepalm:
You can change avatars now...Gregg Williams deserves everything they can throw at him.
Gregg Williams deserves everything they can throw at him.
Still think suspending Payton for a year, and suspending the assistant head coach and GM for a huge chunk of the year is excessive.
Also, I still don't understand why only the Saints are being punished since it has been proven that he did this everywhere he's been. If the Saints get torched, the Bills, Redskins, and Jaguars should be at least fully investigated, as well as the team he was currently coaching for at the time of the scandal, the Rams.
Or the head coach telling his defensive coordinator to do whatever it takes to turn up the pressure and knowing full well what he was doing.
I haven't heard anything about those organizations lying to the NFL about it.
That a version of this goes on in every NFL locker room, and if you were shocked by it, it was probably because you've never spent time in one.
First, I didn't see the big deal in that speech other than the comment about hitting people's heads in the pile and targeting ACLs. The "you are animals, the other team is your enemy, rip them apart" type speeches are standard fare from pee wee leagues on up.
Even coaching high school, when we were doing prep work we'd notice weaknesses. Catcher flinches and is scared to stand her ground on plays at the plate. We get a chance early we're going to steamroll her ass even if we KNOW we're going to make an out because it sets the tone. We'll score two or three additional runs because she'll play scared.
Lineman has a bad shoulder? We're coming from that side. Make him work it. Make him hurt.
But I never told players to intentionally hurt anybody.And this
I've been in a few and never heard that kind of talk. Been in one before, at half and after a game. Never heard commands to kill.
How much time has Chizad spent in NFL lockerrooms?I actually considered typing out "(not that I have)" after that sentence, but thought that was a "No shit, Sherlock" statement. I actually anticipated someone throwing that one at me as some sort of a "gotcha", but I figured that went without saying, and had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.
I'm being taken out of context again...
I was saying exactly this:
And then said exactly thisAnd this
And as for this:I actually considered typing out "(not that I have)" after that sentence, but thought that was a "No shit, Sherlock" statement. I actually anticipated someone throwing that one at me as some sort of a "gotcha", but I figured that went without saying, and had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.
I'm officially annoyed by this Saints story. Everyone needs to get off their high horse, you can't change a culture of thinking overnight.
For instance, ESPN was running these segments less than 2 1/2 years ago. I'm just sayin'. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBMTJCwdPUU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBMTJCwdPUU#)
Does anyone really think the Saints listened to Gregg Williams and said, "Coach is right, I should rip Crabtree's ACL!" Come on.
Williams is a total buffoon, but I'm sure he's not the only one. Te truth is, it's a violent sport and we have no idea how these guys talk.
NFL/Goodell = belated ass-covering/scapegoat/deflection mode. They ignored hardcore concussion evidence from '06 to '10. Ask @sportslegacy
Real Sports piece on Chris Nowinski + concussion in 2007 --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mB1gFXfOZU# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mB1gFXfOZU#)
I guess Roger Goodell didn't have HBO in 2007.
Does anyone really think the Saints listened to Gregg Williams and said, "Coach is right, I should rip Crabtree's ACL!" Come on.
As a comment by itself? Maybe not. But with a bounty system in place that rewards the injury of other players? Yes.
This is supported by the fact that the video indicates that the coach rubbed his fingers together to signal "money" when making a comment about hitting a player in the head.
Was he signaling money for no reason whatsoever? His intent wasn't to give incentives to players for head hits, cart off hits, knock outs, etc.? Players weren't reacting to those incentives, and were instead just being good little boys going out to play clean games?
I don't buy it.
Also, the audio was done while the NFL was investigating the Saints, and the Saints were aware of the investigation. LMAO, what a bunch of fuckin dumbasses.
If this is true, that was the toned down and sanitized version of his normal instructions.
Casts a different light.
If this is true, that was the toned down and sanitized version of his normal instructions.I'm guessing he didn't know someone was recording his speech...plus, the audio has been cut up.
Casts a different light.
My skreets are telling me that the Saints aren't willing to do a longterm deal with Brees, in the neighborhood of $20 Million + per year. Brees' agent is also Payton Manning's agent...and Brees deserves to make more money than the deal that Denver and Manning struck a few days ago. He also isn't going to sign the "franchise player" papers.Skreets. They're never wrong...unless they are.
Kristian: Brees and Saints have only "minor details" left
WWL.com Reporting
WWL Saints Sideline Reporter Kristian Garic is reporting that the New Orleans Saints and quarterback Drew Brees are very close to getting a long-term deal done.
"As early as Friday morning... or at the latest by Monday," Garic said a contract could "very possibly" be signed.
He says, "The two sides have really closed the gap, and it may be just minor details at this point."
Click HERE to listen to Tommy Tucker's interview with Kristian about the contract talks...
Garic reports it will be in the neighborhood of $20 million dollars for the first two years.
"It is going surpass Peyton Manning's average of $19.3 million annually."
Kristian's information says it will be a five year deal.
"Contract negotiations like this, the slightest snag can put you back at square one...these things are very fragile, but I feel good about the information I've learned."
Skreets. They're never wrong...unless they are.â€The deal might be signed on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, someday.â€
http://www.wwl.com/Kristian--Brees-and-Saints-have-only--minor-detail/13364132
â€The deal might be signed on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, someday.â€
There were a lot of maybes and might bes in that article.
Skreets. They're never wrong...unless they are.The Saints haven't agreed to a long term deal, $20 million + contract, Brees will not be franchised by the Saints...where was the skreets wrong on this?
http://www.wwl.com/Kristian--Brees-and-Saints-have-only--minor-detail/13364132