Tigers X - Number one Source to Talk Auburn Tigers Sports
The Library => Haley Center Basement => Topic started by: Aubie16 on March 09, 2010, 09:43:56 AM
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All choices in alphabetical order.
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I'm a wicken.
I am being oppressed by this poll! I put a curse on you all.
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I now have two loves in my life: "big-city livin' and a voodoo woman named Phyllis
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I now have two loves in my life: "big-city livin' and a voodoo woman named Phyllis
"New Orleans is an expensive city, but fun."
I personally am Methodist which is really Roman Catholic twice removed.
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"New Orleans is an expensive city, but fun."
I personally am Methodist which is really Roman Catholic twice removed.
I was raised deep Southern Baptist but am now by both choice and by marriage a Methodist. Took communion this weekend for the first time as a Methodist - guess we had missed the Communion Sundays before, as we were not regular when the kids were babies. Anyway, first time for me, and wow - was totally weirded out by the kneeling at the altar to receive communion. Growing up Baptist, twern't no kneelin' - it was always passed around like the offering plate. So that was totally new. I also still struggle with the whole "women wearing pants to church on Sunday morning" thing. I can remember my mom doing that twice - TWICE - when I was a kid. Both times it was below freezing outside, and she changed clothes three times out of nervousness. Ladies wore dresses or skirts to church, period, and I still get kind of puckery when I walk into the sanctuary in a pair of pants. Once it is sandal weather (not until after Easter!!) I will go back to skirts and dresses all summer and into fall. Personal choice, and I am just more comfortable (mentally). I know God doesn't care, but some habits are just too deeply ingrained.
You can take the girl out of the Baptist, but you can't take the Baptist out of the girl.
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Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
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So, I guess those of us that are Scientologists don't get a say in this?
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So, I guess those of us that are Scientologists don't get a say in this?
Preach on Travolta.
Remind me sometime at a gathering to relay the story of me and the Church of Scientology in downtown San Diego back 20 years ago.
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So, I guess those of us that are Scientologists don't get a say in this?
fixed.
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So, I guess those of us that are Scientologists don't get a say in this?
Come out of the closet, Mr Cruise!
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So, I guess those of us that are Scientologists don't get a say in this?
Just let me know when those thetans come back...I don want none of dem der anal-probes.
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Why is alcoholic not listed either?
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Why is alcoholic not listed either?
Because it is not a religion it is a life style.
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Because it is not a religion it is a life style.
Nein! Nein! Nein! Nein!
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Nein! Nein! Nein! Nein!
Oh yes, yes, yes, yes.
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So, I guess those of us that are Scientologists don't get a say in this?
I try to make it a point not to make fun of people's religion. I mean, who knows what is actually the "right" religion? However, Scientology is one crazy ass religion. I've never met a Scientologist or anything, so I don't know how folks in their religion are. But just from what I have read.....wow.
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I try to make it a point not to make fun of people's religion. I mean, who knows what is actually the "right" religion? However, Scientology is one crazy ass religion. I've never met a Scientologist or anything, so I don't know how folks in their religion are. But just from what I have read.....wow.
I see what you mean.
Aliens seeding the earth with humans is soooo much crazier than any other religious myth.
They're all equally incredible.
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I did a brief stint in Utah...and I have to say, once you start getting deep into the Mormon religion, I mean the stuff they don't tell the general public...well Scientology isn't the craziest squirrel in the tree.
And Wes, don't fuck with my water into wine fanatsy.
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I did a brief stint in Utah...and I have to say, once you start getting deep into the Mormon religion, I mean the stuff they don't tell the general public...well Scientology isn't the craziest squirrel in the tree.
I'm reading Under The Banner of Heaven now and it has been very illuminating vis a vis teh Mormons. Crazy fuckers.
And Wes, don't fuck with my water into wine fanatsy.
Whatever makes it work for you, doll.
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my dancing skillz say i'm baptist.
my bank account says i'm jewish.
there wasn't an option for a little bit of both; therefore, i checked christian.
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I see what you mean.
Aliens seeding the earth with humans is soooo much crazier than any other religious myth.
They're all equally incredible.
Aliens putting people around volcanoes and detonating hydrogen bombs simultaneously inside said volcanoes four quadrillion years ago is a bit of a stretch. Especially when the whole religion is founded by some guy who wrote science fiction novels and wasn't even born until the 20th century. I would say Scientology is one of the more incredible ones.
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Why are us members of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster not represented?
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I did a brief stint in Utah...and I have to say, once you start getting deep into the Mormon religion, I mean the stuff they don't tell the general public...well Scientology isn't the craziest squirrel in the tree.
And Wes, don't fuck with my water into wine fanatsy.
I'm partial to the burning bush and parting the Red Sea.
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Aliens putting people around volcanoes and detonating hydrogen bombs simultaneously inside said volcanoes four quadrillion years ago is a bit of a stretch. Especially when the whole religion is founded by some guy who wrote science fiction novels and wasn't even born until the 20th century. I would say Scientology is one of the more incredible ones.
A bit of a stretch? Hilarious.
How about an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful being that created the heavens and earth in 6 days? He knows everything that you'll do, claims to have given you free will...and will smite thee mightily for choosing poorly. Oh yeah...he also needs your money.
All the religious mythologies are ridiculous in their own way.
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I'm partial to the burning bush and parting the Red Sea.
If you are partial to a burning bush...hang out with Chad and Taylor a bit more often.
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If you are partial to a burning bush...hang out with Chad and Taylor a bit more often.
We do have a power to part womens legs in a holy manner, and we know many womens in a biblical sense.
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I was thinking more along the lines of the herp...or the clap...heard they burn.
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I was thinking more along the lines of the herp...or the clap...heard they burn.
Howard shared that information in confidence. You've broken the circle of trust.
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I was thinking more along the lines of the herp...or the clap...heard they burn.
And there is that...dammit...
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Howard shared that information in confidence. You've broken the circle of trust.
Aw, sugar that is not true. Some of us can keep things in the vault.
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Where's sabanist?
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Where's sabanist?
As much as you post about him, you should be the founder.
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A bit of a stretch? Hilarious.
How about an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful being that created the heavens and earth in 6 days? He knows everything that you'll do, claims to have given you free will...and will smite thee mightily for choosing poorly. Oh yeah...he also needs your money.
All the religious mythologies are ridiculous in their own way.
You have the lines blurred a bit there brother. Faith is the belief in something else bigger than you or I. Religion is created by man and therefore fallible. God doesn't ask for my money only that I believe.
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Well, this poll settles it.
You ain't cool if you ain't Christian.
Buncha agnostic hippies if you ask me. And as for that atheist? :bc:
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I'm not sure where it fits into this discussion, but this has always been an all-time favorite of mine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIgb7cMgJEw# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIgb7cMgJEw#)
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Well, this poll settles it.
You ain't cool if you ain't Christian.
Buncha agnostic hippies if you ask me. And as for that atheist? :bc:
I realize this post was in jest, but this is mostly due to the location of the voters. If the poll had been taken in Afghanistan or Yemen, then the results would be decidedly Muslim. Buddhist in Cambodia and Taiwan, Hindu in India, and you'd notice a very large absence of religion in Estonia.
This makes me wonder if most people actually study religions and choose a faith that suits them the best or appears to be the most truthful, or if their religion is mostly culturally induced.
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I realize this post was in jest, but this is mostly due to the location of the voters. If the poll had been taken in Afghanistan or Yemen, then the results would be decidedly Muslim. Buddhist in Cambodia and Taiwan, Hindu in India, and you'd notice a very large absence of religion in Estonia.
This makes me wonder if most people actually study religions and choose a faith that suits them the best or appears to be the most truthful, or if their religion is mostly culturally induced.
Don't start with the cultural comments, you racist bastard. Titan will shut this shit down.
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Don't start with the cultural comments, you racist bastard. Titan will shut this shit down.
Damn it...I guess I'll have to wear my pillow case on my head in the corner again...
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Damn it...I guess I'll have to wear my pillow case on my head in the corner again...
Good. I'm tired of being lonely.
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This makes me wonder if most people actually study religions and choose a faith that suits them the best or appears to be the most truthful, or if their religion is mostly culturally induced dogmatic brainwashing instilled from birth.
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I realize this post was in jest, but this is mostly due to the location of the voters. If the poll had been taken in Afghanistan or Yemen, then the results would be decidedly Muslim. Buddhist in Cambodia and Taiwan, Hindu in India, and you'd notice a very large absence of religion in Estonia.
This makes me wonder if most people actually study religions and choose a faith that suits them the best or appears to be the most truthful, or if their religion is mostly culturally induced.
Those polls would have been irrelevant as they are areas littered with heathens. Damn garlic smellin' bastards.
In all seriousness, it is definitely true that your religious affiliation is directly tied to your parents' dogmatic brainwashing/culturally induced peer pressure. Most people (all religions) remain committed to the one they are introduced to at a young age.
But that doesn't change the fact that an overwhelming majority of Earth's population recognizes the existence of a god or God. While this isn't concrete evidence to support his existence or the purpose for religion, I think it's a factor that has to be taken into consideration when deciding what to believe regarding your own personal spiritual life.
Although, as I grow older in age and wisdom, I've come to realization that an overwhelming majority of Earth's population are sick with the Dumbass Disease. So who really knows?
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This makes me wonder if most people actually study religions and choose a faith that suits them the best or appears to be the most truthful, or if their religion is mostly culturally induced dogmatic brainwashing instilled from birth.
Not trying to start a fight, but you don't see any problem with making this kind of insulting statement? Because you don't believe you disparage all of us who do with your snide and condescending attitude.
And you wonder how things spin out of hand sometimes.
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This makes me wonder if most people actually study religions and choose a faith that suits them the best or appears to be the most truthful, or if their religion is mostly culturally induced dogmatic brainwashing instilled from birth.
Not true at all. There are many who choose to follow/worship a god or God that had no religious influence in the home they grew up in as there are many who choose not to follow/worship a god or God when they grew up around it everyday.
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Not trying to start a fight, but you don't see any problem with making this kind of insulting statement? Because you don't believe you disparage all of us who do with your snide and condescending attitude.
And you wonder how things spin out of hand sometimes.
I don't mean to insult. This is why I don't like discussing this topic, and won't from here on out if my opinion is not wanted.
There's a mechanism built in as a basic tenet of most, if not all, religions whereby anyone or anything that challenges or is critical of it simply cannot be discussed: blasphemy.
Much like the tenet that forces one to ignore science, reason, and logic and apply those rules to religion in a different manner than they would to everything else that takes place in the natural world: faith.
Essentially, it doesn't make sense, because it's not supposed to. It's a test. If you apply critical thinking, then you fail the test, i.e. have no faith. And if an argument that challenges that faith arises, it's the work of Satan. Be deeply offended. Block it out best you can.
Not true at all. There are many who choose to follow/worship a god or God that had no religious influence in the home they grew up in...
In which case they were indoctrinated by members of their cultural environment at a later age. Indoctrination is not impossible at any age, only it is far easier to do so at a developmental age. Hence frenzies about tobacco companies advertising to children, etc. Either way, those cases are comparatively far far rarer, and even more rare is it that a person comes to a religion that is not the social norm amongst their peers.
...as there are many who choose not to follow/worship a god or God when they grew up around it everyday.
I don't see how this disproves anything I said at all. Not everyone is susceptible to being indoctrinated. It is in some people's nature not to blindly accept what they are told, but rather ask questions. These questions may very well lead them away from the beliefs of their parents.
Religion is, by its very nature, a topic that demands respect and must be handled with kid gloves or else people get very, very offended.
I admit I'm not very good at that, no matter the topic, so I'll probably just bite my tongue from this point forward.
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Where man fails now and throughout most of time is the ignoring of science. There has never been any reason why science and religion/faith have to be mutually exclusive yet they are treated as such by most.
Aw, sugar that is not true. Some of us can keep things in the vault.
I heard it is more cavernous than a vault.
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I don't mean to insult. This is why I don't like discussing this topic, and won't from here on out if my opinion is not wanted.
There's a mechanism built in as a basic tenet of most, if not all, religions whereby anyone or anything that challenges or is critical of it simply cannot be discussed: blasphemy.
Much like the tenet that forces one to ignore science, reason, and logic and apply those rules to religion in a different manner than they would to everything else that takes place in the natural world: faith.
Essentially, it doesn't make sense, because it's not supposed to. It's a test. If you apply critical thinking, then you fail the test, i.e. have no faith. And if an argument that challenges that faith arises, it's the work of Satan. Be deeply offended. Block it out best you can.
In which case they were indoctrinated by members of their cultural environment at a later age. Indoctrination is not impossible at any age, only it is far easier to do so at a developmental age. Hence frenzies about tobacco companies advertising to children, etc. Either way, those cases are comparatively far far rarer, and even more rare is it that a person comes to a religion that is not the social norm amongst their peers.
I don't see how this disproves anything I said at all. Not everyone is susceptible to being indoctrinated. It is in some people's nature not to blindly accept what they are told, but rather ask questions. These questions may very well lead them away from the beliefs of their parents.
Religion is, by its very nature, a topic that demands respect and must be handled with kid gloves or else people get very, very offended.
I admit I'm not very good at that, no matter the topic, so I'll probably just bite my tongue from this point forward.
It's not a matter of your opinion not being wanted, it's more the concept that because you don't believe you seemingly have contempt for those who do by dismissing their core values as "indoctrination."
I can't speak for anybody else, but nobody indoctrinated me. I chose -- or more to the point I feel I was chosen -- to believe what I believe.
I don't mind anybody criticizing my faith -- and a lot of the things done in the name of the Christian Church are deserving of criticism -- nor do I mind a challenge. It does bother me for someone who thinks differently to assume that those of us who believe are somehow less able to apply logic or rationality or that we're all less erudite.
Your view of "faith" is not at all how I arrived at this place at all. I've never blindly accepted anything in my life. I asked plenty of questions and got answers. But that's something nobody can do for you.
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It's not a matter of your opinion not being wanted, it's more the concept that because you don't believe you seemingly have contempt for those who do by dismissing their core values as "indoctrination."
I can't speak for anybody else, but nobody indoctrinated me. I chose -- or more to the point I feel I was chosen -- to believe what I believe.
I don't mind anybody criticizing my faith -- and a lot of the things done in the name of the Christian Church are deserving of criticism -- nor do I mind a challenge. It does bother me for someone who thinks differently to assume that those of us who believe are somehow less able to apply logic or rationality or that we're all less erudite.
Your view of "faith" is not at all how I arrived at this place at all. I've never blindly accepted anything in my life. I asked plenty of questions and got answers. But that's something nobody can do for you.
Very well put. You get a star.
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I heard it is more cavernous than a vault.
helloooooooo hellooooooooo hellooooooooo
I got lots of secrets.
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It's not a matter of your opinion not being wanted, it's more the concept that because you don't believe you seemingly have contempt for those who do by dismissing their core values as "indoctrination."
I can't speak for anybody else, but nobody indoctrinated me. I chose -- or more to the point I feel I was chosen -- to believe what I believe.
I don't mind anybody criticizing my faith -- and a lot of the things done in the name of the Christian Church are deserving of criticism -- nor do I mind a challenge. It does bother me for someone who thinks differently to assume that those of us who believe are somehow less able to apply logic or rationality or that we're all less erudite.
Your view of "faith" is not at all how I arrived at this place at all. I've never blindly accepted anything in my life. I asked plenty of questions and got answers. But that's something nobody can do for you.
THIS....
Was going to leave this one alone but I will bite...
And thanks for the blanket statement Chad. Now all of us naive, brainwashed Christians will go back into hiding and keep getting conned out of our weekly paychecks :) ~sarcasm intended~
And have you ever thought about for a second that when you speak of logic and science with faith, that you are attempting to apply human knowledge and logic to a situation that is possibly above and beyond that of a human? Of course hypothetically - that is assuming there IS a God. And going with that - its using Orange logic on an Apple.
The biggest thing with me on religion/God/faith/etc, is that I just find it very very hard to believe that everything you see in front of you and how the entire world is intricately connected and woven in such a perfect complex manner - is just an accident or a big bang or evolution. There is an intelligent design to it all. There are complex things such as DNA, procreation, the atmosphere, agriculture - that CANNOT be a spontaneous creation of an amoeba or an atom deciding it wanted to be something bigger in random fashion. It just makes no sense - no disrespect to Hawking - I think he's a smart guy, but his theories just seem TOO simplistic to explain all of this we see.
Just my .02.
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And thanks for the blanket statement Chad. Now all of us naive, brainwashed Christians will go back into hiding and keep getting conned out of our weekly paychecks :) ~sarcasm intended~
You and Kaos are making the mistake of assuming that Chad's "indoctrination" comment was aimed solely at Christians.
In the context of the discussion, Chad's comment addressed the proclivity of certain geographic regions to be dominated by a particular religion.
You tend to be most like the people that surround you. The shining examples of individuality on this forum notwithstanding, this is a pretty universal truth about people.
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You and Kaos are making the mistake of assuming that Chad's "indoctrination" comment was aimed solely at Christians.
In the context of the discussion, Chad's comment addressed the proclivity of certain geographic regions to be dominated by a particular religion.
You tend to be most like the people that surround you. The shining examples of individuality on this forum notwithstanding, this is a pretty universal truth about people.
I made no such mistake. It had the capacity to insult me as a Christian, but it also has the same impact on a Jew, Muslim or whatever.
Not to veer this off in another direction, but your last comment is one of the platforms used by those who oppose forced integration. When left to their own devices and free of governmental intrusion, the natural human tendency of people is to live, work, interact and worship with people who share the same characteristics. In the past few decades that tendency hasn't really changed much. You can add the wealth factor, in that people are most comfortable around people of similar wealth, but even that has some limits.
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I made no such mistake. It had the capacity to insult me as a Christian, but it also has the same impact on a Jew, Muslim or whatever.
My apologies for assuming your assumption.
Not to veer this off in another direction, but your last comment is one of the platforms used by those who oppose forced integration. When left to their own devices and free of governmental intrusion, the natural human tendency of people is to live, work, interact and worship with people who share the same characteristics. In the past few decades that tendency hasn't really changed much. You can add the wealth factor, in that people are most comfortable around people of similar wealth, but even that has some limits.
So....why the problem with Chad's statement then?
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So....why the problem with Chad's statement then?
The way it was phrased led me to believe that he was dismissing all religion as mumbo-jumbo and that by believing in whatever it is we believe, we are by definition "brainwashed."
Maybe that's not what he meant, but the way it was expressed devalued something that is probably the single most important aspect in the lives of millions of people.
I took his contention to be that those who believe are inherently dumber, are unable to process rational or logical thought or are mentally weaker than those who don't believe. His implication appeared to be that believers are incapable of critical thinking. I disagree with that completely.
Religious belief is a very personal thing. There were years of critical thinking -- and several years of outright rejection -- involved in my decision. Yes, I know everybody isn't like that. I know that some people are Methodists because their parents and grandparents were -- just as some people are Auburn/Alabama fans for that same reason (another form of indoctrination). But for many the choice to believe is the result of much (pardon the expression) soul searching.
I studied other religions. I know that many of the stories in the Bible are contained in other doctrines. The story of Moses being set adrift in the River Nile as a baby, for instance, bears striking similarities to the story of Aragon in ancient Mesopotamian writings. I guess I'm probably different from others because it isn't necessary for me to believe in the absolute veracity of the story of Moses to understand the truths being conveyed in that story. For me, that's really what matters.
But back to the topic. It's the same story we've seen on a thousand other topics. "Enlightened" is in the eye of the beholder.
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This is the way I see this argument.
A. Your right and there is no God, there is nothing in the afterlife, when we die...thats it.
B. I am right and God exists, there is a heaven and a hell and we get to spend an eternity with those we love sitting on rainbows.
Either way YOU are fucked!
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My apologies for assuming your assumption.
So....why the problem with Chad's statement then?
Wanting to be around others already like you on a free will basis vs becoming like those already around you via indoctrination = 2 different things.
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Religious belief is a very personal thing. There were years of critical thinking -- and several years of outright rejection -- involved in my decision. Yes, I know everybody isn't like that. I know that some people are Methodists because their parents and grandparents were -- just as some people are Auburn/Alabama fans for that same reason (another form of indoctrination). But for many the choice to believe is the result of much (pardon the expression) soul searching.
Exactly.
If I had been successfully indoctrinated from what was around me growing up I would be an Alabama fan and Catholic. I was raised Irish Catholic but am now Methodist because as I got older I formed my own opinions and went the way I thought was right - not the way I was told to go. If anything, I bucked against the system. Like Kaos, there are a few things/beliefs that many in the Christian faith share (that technically aren't a 'must have' in the Bible) that I think is total hogwash. Christianity in itself isn't bad at all. In its true form its a very modest, peaceful religion. Unfortunately, a lot of "Christians" have turned a lot of people off of Christianity via using their own personal convictions and loose interpretations of the Bible and trying to retrofit them together and force it down people's throats by passing judgement in a very dogmatic fashion. Ive had many a Southern Baptist (or like fundamental denomination) judge me for simply being a Methodist. We're too liberal, our pastor structure isnt righteous, we dont do this right, we dont do that right, we dont call it a tithe but an offering and we all know it takes a "tithe" to get to heaven, etc etc. And its sad
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. Unfortunately, a lot of "Christians" have turned a lot of people off of Christianity via using their own personal convictions and loose interpretations of the Bible and trying to retrofit them together and force it down people's throats by passing judgement in a very dogmatic fashion.
As Sam Kinison said about God thumbing through the bible while speaking to Jim Baker....."where did I say build a water slide?"
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As Sam Kinison said about God thumbing through the bible while speaking to Jim Baker....."where did I say build a water slide?"
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Gandhi
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Wanting to be around others already like you on a free will basis vs becoming like those already around you via indoctrination = 2 different things.
So, do you really dispute this?
Do you disagree that the vast majority of people in the Middle East are Muslim?
Do you disagree that the vast majority of people in East Asia are Buddhist?
Do you disagree that the vast majority of people in Southeast Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc.) are Hindu?
Do you disagree that the vast majority of people in Japan are Shinto?
Do you disagree that the vast majority of people in the United States are Christian? Even more so when broken down further to only include the South, and even more specifically in that case Protestant Christian? Catholics in Mexico?
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So, do you really dispute this?
Do you disagree that the vast majority of people in the Middle East are Muslim?
Do you disagree that the vast majority of people in East Asia are Buddhist?
Do you disagree that the vast majority of people in Southeast Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc.) are Hindu?
Do you disagree that the vast majority of people in Japan are Shinto?
Do you disagree that the vast majority of people in the United States are Christian? Even more so when broken down further to only include the South, and even more specifically in that case Protestant Christian? Catholics in Mexico?
Not sure where you're going but all I was saying is that not all people who believe in a religion are indoctrinated or brainwashed. Like people tend to stick together. Same reason you have little Italy, Hell's Kitchen, Chinatown - people USUALLY will flock to where there are people of their like. Its just human nature. I dont think indoctrination is a factor most of the time.
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Are all those billions of people brainwashed and you alone enlightened because you reject their beliefs?
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Not sure where you're going but all I was saying is that not all people who believe in a religion are indoctrinated or brainwashed. Like people tend to stick together. Same reason you have little Italy, Hell's Kitchen, Chinatown - people USUALLY will flock to where there are people of their like. Its just human nature. I dont think indoctrination is a factor most of the time.
So you believe that the majority of people in each religion are born scattered all across the globe, equally dispersed, but then they "flock" to locations where people of the same religion are highly concentrated?
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Are all those billions of people brainwashed and you alone enlightened because you reject their beliefs?
From the guy with the Confederacy of Dumbass avatar.
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This is the way I see this argument.
A. Your right and there is no God, there is nothing in the afterlife, when we die...thats it.
B. I am right and God exists, there is a heaven and a hell and we get to spend an eternity with those we love sitting on rainbows.
Either way YOU are fucked!
You are forgetting there is a C.
C. Muslims are right or any other religion is right. Then you could be the one going to hell.
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You are forgetting there is a C.
C. Muslims are right or any other religion is right. Then you could be the one going to hell.
I disagree becuase the basic belief in all religions is there is but one God worship him. If you look at the original teachings of the Muslim faith, it is based on Christianity. Muslims believe Jesus to be a prophet on the scale of Mohammed. That Alah is God. Allah, God, Buddah it is but one same God. I am a Catholic, I believe that Jesus was the son of God, do I know that Catholicism is the right religion. I do not, I don't believe there is a thing as a "right" religion, my belief is that you should believe in something and take part in it. Otherwise in my opinion whats the point?
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So you believe that the majority of people in each religion are born scattered all across the globe, equally dispersed, but then they "flock" to locations where people of the same religion are highly concentrated?
You love to put words in mouths. I never said that. I think with those places its just the culture of the region and many times the history of the country. America is a different animal in a lot of ways because its a melting pot with a short short history. I was referring to how many people flock to their own kind in regards to religion, beliefs, etc.....Maybe you should start blogging Chad so that you can vent much of this animosity you have towards any traditional belief. No one is forcing ANYTHING on you in this country. Lighten up Francis. :thumsup:
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I disagree becuase the basic belief in all religions is there is but one God worship him. If you look at the original teachings of the Muslim faith, it is based on Christianity. Muslims believe Jesus to be a prophet on the scale of Mohammed. That Alah is God. Allah, God, Buddah it is but one same God. I am a Catholic, I believe that Jesus was the son of God, do I know that Catholicism is the right religion. I do not, I don't believe there is a thing as a "right" religion, my belief is that you should believe in something and take part in it. Otherwise in my opinion whats the point?
Just trying to clarify your views...Is it your belief that Muslims, Jews, and Christians will all go to heaven?
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Just trying to clarify your views...Is it your belief that Muslims, Jews, and Christians will all go to heaven?
People worry too much about others going to heaven these days. AND those people are exactly one of the reasons that people who don't like religion - don't like it.
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Just trying to clarify your views...Is it your belief that Muslims, Jews, and Christians will all go to heaven?
I do....as well as dogs.
I do not believe religious zealots that use religion as a mask to kill each other do though.
and like GH2001 said I do not concern myself with them, I worry about getting my own self into heaven.
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I am a Catholic
Good to know I'm not the only one going to heaven. ;)
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I do....as well as dogs.
Thanks for your honest answers. I appreciate it.
I have to assume you do not believe the bible is infallible then? Considering it quotes Jesus as saying "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) It just seems as if your beliefs contradict what most of Christians seem to believe.
I've found reading this thread to be pretty interesting. Keep in mind these questions are from an agnostic.
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Thanks for your honest answers. I appreciate it.
I have to assume you do not believe the bible is infallible then? Considering it quotes Jesus as saying "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) It just seems as if your beliefs contradict what most of Christians seem to believe.
I've found reading this thread to be pretty interesting. Keep in mind these questions are from an agnostic.
again like I said earlier regarding religion in general ...the bible was written an interpreted by man, man is fallible. I believe in my faith, I try to live according to its teachings as much as possible. That includes not judging others including their beliefs.
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From the guy with the Confederacy of Dumbass avatar....
...Who can separate reality from goofing around.
Didn't answer the question, either.
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again like I said earlier regarding religion in general ...the bible was written an interpreted by man, man is fallible. I believe in my faith, I try to live according to its teachings as much as possible. That includes not judging others including their beliefs.
Beyond that, portions of the Bible were written hundreds of years after the events described took place.
Take, for instance, the contention that certain Biblical figures were hundreds or thousands of years old. It's possible -- likely even -- that they were just remembered as very, very old and someone with my flair for hyperbole said "that guy was 900 years old!" That became part of the story and lived on.
Maybe I'm wrong, but what you're supposed to get from the Bible (at least my opinion) is the overarching theme. If you try to bury yourselves in the details you (again my opinion) become hopelessly lost. I know people like that. People who can spout it line for line and will try to shout you down if you attempt to make a rational argument against, say, the six days theory. Six days by what measure? Six Gregorian calendar days? I don't think so. That's limiting God.
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There were years of critical thinking -- and several years of outright rejection -- involved in my decision. Yes, I know everybody isn't like that. I know that some people are Methodists because their parents and grandparents were -- just as some people are Auburn/Alabama fans for that same reason (another form of indoctrination). But for many the choice to believe is the result of much (pardon the expression) soul searching.
I think that you, and others that went through this process, are the very rare exception.
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again like I said earlier regarding religion in general ...the bible was written an interpreted by man, man is fallible. I believe in my faith, I try to live according to its teachings as much as possible. That includes not judging others including their beliefs.
Cool.
I appreciate everyone that is taking part in this thread. I can't believe we actually have a 5 page thread on the X without any hijacks, 2 year old arguments, or anything of that sort. Minor miracle. Maybe I SHOULD believe in a higher power, ha.
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This is the way I see this argument.
A. Your right and there is no God, there is nothing in the afterlife, when we die...thats it.
B. I am right and God exists, there is a heaven and a hell and we get to spend an eternity with those we love sitting on rainbows.
Either way YOU are fucked!
Assuming that the God in which you've chosen to believe is the correct God. If you're incorrect (and due to the vast number of religions, the odds are against you), then you're in the same boat.
EDIT: I see now where this has been asked by Aubie and responded to by a couple of people. Nonetheless, I think that the statement is still valid. Although most religions have their similarities, they are also often exclusive. Sure, most believe that there is one God, but the identity of that deity differs. The "rules" of that deity differ. And you may choose to chalk this up to organized religion, but some religions even claim that no other religion is correct and that only X religion will be recognized as true worship of God, whose followers are the only one worthy of entering heaven.
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I do....as well as dogs.
I do not believe religious zealots that use religion as a mask to kill each other do though.
and like GH2001 said I do not concern myself with them, I worry about getting my own self into heaven
So why are agnostics and atheists your only exception to this rule? Why is there a difference in Options B & C is what I'm asking.
...Who can separate reality from goofing around.
Didn't answer the question, either.
I'm not the only agnostic/atheist in this thread, let alone the entire world. I don't get your point. Furthermore, only one faction of those people are "right". Despite what most people here have suggested, the popular belief within all of these religions is that only "their" religion has any validity, and the rest is fairy tale nonsense...and other believers go to hell or its equivalent. At best, Christianity is "right", and that means 2/3 of the world were wrong and going to hell. Then there are many of those who believe that only their denomination is "right", so that makes even less people who are safe from the flames of hell, no matter what the truth is.
Beyond that, portions of the Bible were written hundreds of years after the events described took place.
Take, for instance, the contention that certain Biblical figures were hundreds or thousands of years old. It's possible -- likely even -- that they were just remembered as very, very old and someone with my flair for hyperbole said "that guy was 900 years old!" That became part of the story and lived on.
Maybe I'm wrong, but what you're supposed to get from the Bible (at least my opinion) is the overarching theme. If you try to bury yourselves in the details you (again my opinion) become hopelessly lost. I know people like that. People who can spout it line for line and will try to shout you down if you attempt to make a rational argument against, say, the six days theory. Six days by what measure? Six Gregorian calendar days? I don't think so. That's limiting God.
This I can understand. This I can agree with. But again, your view on this is the minority amongst Christians.
For example, even you would probably agree that one cannot be a Christian if they reject the idea of virgin birth. If they think Jesus Christ claiming to be the son of God is no different than David Koresh doing so, because they equally critical of things that take place in the present day as they are to the stories of the Bible (even the central one), then those people certainly cannot be considered Christians, can they? I guess it then becomes a matter of which parts of the Bible do you think are meant to be poetic fables with a moral, and which parts are meant to be taken literally. To me, it seems like it should be all or none, but that's just me.
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So why are agnostics and atheists your only exception to this rule? Why is there a difference in Options B & C is what I'm asking.
Maybe it is my misunderstanding, but if you don't believe in a higher power than I would assume you don't believe in heaven or hell. If that's the case than why would you care about options B or C?
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In which case they were indoctrinated by members of their cultural environment at a later age. Indoctrination is not impossible at any age, only it is far easier to do so at a developmental age. Hence frenzies about tobacco companies advertising to children, etc. Either way, those cases are comparatively far far rarer, and even more rare is it that a person comes to a religion that is not the social norm amongst their peers.
I don't see how this disproves anything I said at all. Not everyone is susceptible to being indoctrinated. It is in some people's nature not to blindly accept what they are told, but rather ask questions. These questions may very well lead them away from the beliefs of their parents.
All I am saying is that not all people come to their decisions of what they choose to believe by "dogmatic brainwashing instilled at birth" i.e. I believe it b/c my parents believe it and by god that is they only way. Weather it be Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, The flying Spaghetti Monster....etc....etc....etc, some come to their own conclusions by researching, asking questions and taking the time to study over things.
Where man fails now and throughout most of time is the ignoring of science. There has never been any reason why science and religion/faith have to be mutually exclusive yet they are treated as such by most.
A man with much more intelligence than I once said. "Science without Religion is lame, Religion without Science is blind and whoever undertakes to set himself up as the judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.
I tend to agree with him. Some things just cannot be explained no matter how much science is thrown at it. Could it be the Providence of a supreme being? In my mind it very well could be.
No one can prove the existence of God, gods or a supreme beings the same as no one can disprove the existence of God, gods or supreme beings. If one can prove it either way without a shadow of a doubt and cold hard facts we would have seen it already. Either way you have to have faith in your thinking and reasoning skills to believe in the existence or nonexistence.
I know what I believe and I accept the facts that not everyone has the same beliefs as I do. To call it dogmatic brainwashing from birth is offensive to me as I am not a lemming. It took me many years to come to my own conclusions.
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I know what I believe and I accept the facts that not everyone has the same beliefs as I do. To call it dogmatic brainwashing from birth is offensive to me as I am not a lemming. It took me many years to come to my own conclusions.
Would you have still ended up a Christian had you been born in Syria?
In other words, were all religions afforded equal consideration during your process or only those that were readily available to you?
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that this is what Chad is saying: The seeds for your particular religious paradigm are planted by the family and social network that you are born into and very few people venture beyond that.
We've heard testimonials from people born into an environment of a particular religion. These people questioned the faith that they were born into, but have not communicated their exploration of other religions.
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...Who can separate reality from goofing around.
Didn't answer the question, either.
I'm not the only agnostic/atheist in this thread, let alone the entire world. I don't get your point. Furthermore, only one faction of those people are "right". Despite what most people here have suggested, the popular belief within all of these religions is that only "their" religion has any validity, and the rest is fairy tale nonsense...and other believers go to hell or its equivalent. At best, Christianity is "right", and that means 2/3 of the world were wrong and going to hell. Then there are many of those who believe that only their denomination is "right", so that makes even less people who are safe from the flames of hell, no matter what the truth is.
Because everyone loves a good pie chart...
(http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif)
Only Christians and Muslims are more popular than "nonreligious" people. And even those are divided into sects whose ideologies are at odds with each other. Of course in fairness, "nonreligious" is segmented as well.
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Cool.
I appreciate everyone that is taking part in this thread. I can't believe we actually have a 5 page thread on the X without any hijacks, 2 year old arguments, or anything of that sort. Minor miracle. Maybe I SHOULD believe in a higher power, ha.
By making this statement I have to ask, are you agnostic or atheists? Maybe I am misunderstanding the difference here, but I always thought an agnostic neither believes nor denies the existence or non existence of a deity and an atheists chooses to deny the existence of a deity outright.
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By making this statement I have to ask, are you agnostic or atheists? Maybe I am misunderstanding the difference here, but I always thought an agnostic neither believes nor denies the existence or non existence of a deity and an atheists chooses to deny the existence of a deity outright.
There are hypothetically "hard atheists" that believe they are 100% positive that there does not exist a God. You are very unlikely to encounter these types of people.
Then there are "soft atheists" who are much more prevalent, who believe that it is far less likely that a God exists than that one does.
Then there are agnostics, which believe the absence or presence of a God are equally likely. 50/50.
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Interesting thing about Chad's pie chart - most all of the smallest religious sects (Jews, Buddists, Chinese traditional, African/primarl traditional) have all been persecuted to the point of nearly extinction at many points in history, including modern times. Some of that persecution has been at the hands of secular leaders (example - the Chinese oppression of the Dhali Lama and many other religions they perceive as a threat to power) but others have been persecuted or "missionaried" out of existence (see every Catholic or Protestant missionary in Africa or South America).
Christians get put in between a rock and a hard place. Have a deep conviction that yours is the One True Religion and go out and prosetlyize and convert the heathens, and be seen by others as arrogant and intolerant and self-righteous. Or stay home, worry about your own relationship with God before you get all conversion happy on the ignorant natives in Bungobungo, and risk failing to follow the basic premise of Jesus's message - Go forth and teach others that man may only come to the Father through me.
My own choice is more like the last. My main job is to worry about my own soul. My other job is to take my kids to church and Sunday School where they can learn the tenets of my faith and the basic morals and values that our society adheres to for the most part (I don't care what you are - The Ten Commandments are pretty simplistic and basic and would apply to any religion). I give my kids the foundation during the time they are young and impressionable, and then hope that they will continue in that path when they get older. The basic foundation is the same for all so I don't call it indoctrination - I would not be upset if they chose one day to belong to some other congregation - but I don't think my 6 year old is at a point now where she can choose to be one versus the other for a rational reason. Her father and I are Methodist so she goes to a Methodist church. Period.
"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." I don't interpret that to mean "Train up a child as a Methodist/Baptist/Catholic/Presbyterian" but rather to teach them the way to go to be a moral person with values and good character.
Bottom line, I believe in the Message, not the earthly messenger.
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By making this statement I have to ask, are you agnostic or atheists? Maybe I am misunderstanding the difference here, but I always thought an agnostic neither believes nor denies the existence or non existence of a deity and an atheists chooses to deny the existence of a deity outright.
I am an agnostic in the fact that I have no idea whether god exists or not. I'm not going to deny the existence of god, just like I am not going to say that he certainly exists. I don't have a clue.
Maybe it is my misunderstanding, but if you don't believe in a higher power than I would assume you don't believe in heaven or hell. If that's the case than why would you care about options B or C?
I believe that IF there is an "all knowing, all loving" god, like many religions claim, surely he won't send 2/3rd's of the world to hell for not believing in the correct religion. I have no idea which religion is right, or if any of them are right.
If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.
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Would you have still ended up a Christian had you been born in Syria?
In other words, were all religions afforded equal consideration during your process or only those that were readily available to you?
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that this is what Chad is saying: The seeds for your particular religious paradigm are planted by the family and social network that you are born into and very few people venture beyond that.
We've heard testimonials from people born into an environment of a particular religion. These people questioned the faith that they were born into, but have not communicated their exploration of other religions.
Who said I was a Christian?
To try and answer your question, if I were born in Syria I would probably claim to be Muslim and still just live my life how I want to live my life. Then again, I might be like 10% to 15% of the population and be a Christian b/c some missionary helped me to explore another option. I just can't honestly answer that question b/c I was not put in that situation.
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If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.
This is the crux of most religions. The details and players get mixed up, but the basic message remains the same.
Religion was very useful as a system of societal control: don't kill, don't steal, be nice to your neighbors.
Somewhere along the way, men learned to profit and subjugate with it.
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I believe that IF there is an "all knowing, all loving" god, like many religions claim, surely he won't send 2/3rd's of the world to hell for not believing in the correct religion. I have no idea which religion is right, or if any of them are right.
If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.
This also begs the question that if there is a God in the most basic sense, as in an intelligent design, does that necessarily mean there is a heaven and hell? To me, the concept of a good place you go when you're good and a bad place you go when you're bad, that was previously believed to be in the sky and below the earth's crust until that was proven to be scientifically impossible, and is now believed to be some other dimension outside of this universe, is a little Santa Clausish.
This reminds me of the movie "The Invention of Lying". Has anyone seen this? Basically, they live in an alternate universe where everyone always tells the truth, because the concept of lying just hasn't ever occurred to them. So the main character's mother falls ill and tells him she's afraid for her life to end and there to be nothing. He comforts her by telling her that what actually happens when you die is you go to a magical place where you no longer feel pain, you're young again, and everyone you've ever known and loved is there. The doctors overhear this and are shocked, wanting to know more. Everyone wants to know how he knows about this magical place, and he's forced to make up more and more. For example, when asked how one makes it to the magical place he says "There's an invisible man...in the sky...he watches over everything we do and say at all times..." etc.
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Who said I was a Christian?
If you're not, then you didn't answer the poll.
To try and answer your question, if I were born in Syria I would probably claim to be Muslim and still just live my life how I want to live my life. Then again, I might be like 10% to 15% of the population and be a Christian b/c some missionary helped me to explore another option. I just can't honestly answer that question b/c I was not put in that situation.
The point is that I don't believe Chad was intending "indoctrination" in a pejorative sense. Only that most people will accept the religion of their childhood or reject religion entirely. There doesn't appear to be a lot of religion-jumping.
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I am an agnostic in the fact that I have no idea whether god exists or not. I'm not going to deny the existence of god, just like I am not going to say that he certainly exists. I don't have a clue.
I believe that IF there is an "all knowing, all loving" god, like many religions claim, surely he won't send 2/3rd's of the world to hell for not believing in the correct religion. I have no idea which religion is right, or if any of them are right.
If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.
Thanks for the answer. I have a co-worker who will get extremely pissed if you call him an atheist and he will tell you that he is agnostic. He will also vehemently deny the existence of a deity of any kind. In his mind "shit just happened" and there is no arguing with him that is the stance of a hardcore atheist not an agnostic.
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This also begs the question that if there is a God in the most basic sense, as in an intelligent design, does that necessarily mean there is a heaven and hell? To me, the concept of a good place you go when you're good and a bad place you go when you're bad, that was previously believed to be in the sky and below the earth's crust until that was proven to be scientifically impossible, and is now believed to be some other dimension outside of this universe, is a little Santa Clausish.
Yes...I've often wondered if these were originally invented (similar to Wes's thinking) in order to get men to behave in a civilized manner and control them. Kind of a scare tactic. Who knows.
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Thanks for the answer. I have a co-worker who will get extremely pissed if you call him an atheist and he will tell you that he is agnostic. He will also vehemently deny the existence of a deity of any kind. In his mind "shit just happened" and there is no arguing with him that is the stance of a hardcore atheist not an agnostic.
I think the problem could be that, in certain areas of the country, atheist has such a negative connotation that it almost stirs up images of satan worshipping, etc. He may be trying to avoid being associated with that.
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This is an interesting topic for me, as I have struggled with my faith over the past few years. I was raised a Southern Baptist. I believe in God, and I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I believe that God sent Jesus to earth to die for my sins (and boy have I sinned) so that I may be saved from sin and spend eternity in Heaven.
All that said, I will be the first to admit that although I am a believer in Christ, based on how I currently live my life I am not a follower of Christ. Just look at my avatar if you need proof. I know that I am not living my life like I have been called to, and yet I don't do anything to change myself. That's probably worse than being an atheist in some Christians' eyes.
I know that a lot of my actions are not considered moral or acceptable in God's (or society's) eyes, but I continue to go down that path. I'm not sure why that is - but in the back of my mind I think that one day I will get back on the straight-and-narrow. Then again, I'm 30 years old with a kid. If not now, when?
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If you're not, then you didn't answer the poll.
The point is that I don't believe Chad was intending "indoctrination" in a pejorative sense. Only that most people will accept the religion of their childhood or reject religion entirely. There doesn't appear to be a lot of religion-jumping.
I took what he said to be a snide little swipe at one's belief in a higher power. True enough that a lot of people believe what they believe b/c of their cultural upbringing. It is also true that some people don't. Koas may or may not be one of those. I work with a guy (well he is on a different contract, but sits down the hall) that was a Muslim until he was converted by a missionary in his twenties. Something was said to him that made him question his faith and he began to ask questions and look for answers. He is a perfect example of someone who came to his own conclusions. It doesn't happen everyday, but it does happen. I just thought it to be a broad brush he was painting with.
I marked Christian in the poll, although I don't consider myself to be one.
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I took what he said to be a snide little swipe at one's belief in a higher power.
I'm sorry you took it that way, as that was not what was intended. I haven't corrected Wes in his assumptions, because he is exactly correct.
I marked Christian in the poll, although I don't consider myself to be one.
Interesting. So what would you consider yourself? Why mark Christian when you are not?
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Because everyone loves a good pie chart...
(http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif)
Only Christians and Muslims are more popular than "nonreligious" people. And even those are divided into sects whose ideologies are at odds with each other. Of course in fairness, "nonreligious" is segmented as well.
Back to this for a moment...
I find it fascinating that Judaism is the least popular religion of those charted, including Sikhism (0.36% vs. 0.22%).
There's shockingly almost twice as many Sikhs as there are Jews.
I guess that's because many ethnically Jewish people fall into the "nonreligious" category when it comes to religion. Still that's far lower than my misconception prior to looking up the numbers.
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(http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif)
This can't be right. How can 0.22% of the population control all the major television networks and movie companies?
More than 0.22% of the people in show business are Jewish.
And how do you explain all those bagels?
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Since I wanted to avoid "getting into it" in another thread, and this thread is entirely about "it", I figured I'd respond to a post that I bit my tongue on earlier here.
I agree with pretty much everything you're saying.
Except I don't believe there is a real threat to expel kids for wearing crosses or having a Bible in their satchel.
I agree with most of what he said as well....and to clarify, my post wasn't supposed to be so much specifically about "god in school" or the US being a "Christian nation". It was more about letting our historical morals fade into European apathy. And while I don't think public schools need to be teaching kids the Bible, there is also no reason to have the Bible and the Christian heritage of our nation ignored and specifically deleted from our history just because that history is being taught in a public school.
As much as liberals want it completely out of school and our history....it is our history, and it's just putting your head in the sand (not "you" literally) to think otherwise.
Here are a few quotes from Ben Franklin:
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
The history of our founding fathers is littered with these kinds of quotes and discussions and I could post pages and pages of quotes by Franklin, Hamilton, Hancock, Henry, Adams (all of them), Jay, Jefferson Madison, etc. It's everywhere... except where it's been deleted or left out intentionally in our current history books.
To me, there is a big difference in expecting the government to push Christianity (which I do NOT expect in any form or fashion), or simply allowing it to exist in it's historical context in regards to our country. THAT I do expect and get really irritated with they take it out based on the "church and state" argument.
While the model of our three branches is similar and partly derived from other government ideas. What did Madison read at the Constitutional Convention to explain where the model comes from? He read Isaiah 33:22 which says "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king". He credited this passage as the inspiration for the idea of the three branches. You will never, never, never find that referenced in a public school history book. Seem pretty relevant to me, in a historical context, seeing as it was read at he constitutional convention and read by James Madison. But nope, it's from the Bible and has the word "Lord" in it....gottta go, no matter what the historical significance or relevance.
Anyway, most of my point in the first post is reflected in Franklin's quote above where he says "do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?". See, the founders thought their faith in God to be very important and relevant to their political ideas and aspirations, and more importantly to the people of our country...which is why John Adams said this...
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
Sure, we've changed a lot. And again, I'm not expecting the government to push Christianity on America But I'm also tired of them going out of their way to push it away from America. In in the much bigger picture (and point of my first post), I'm tired of "morals" and "goodness" (no matter the source...Christian or otherwise) being mocked and shoved off to the side. Christian or not, the more we do that, the worse our society gets....anyone that's been alive 30+ years can see that.
I can find an abundance of quotes from founding fathers that support the opposite.
Thomas Jefferson:
"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." 1787 letter to his nephew
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." Unknown
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Unknown
"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus told us indeed that 'God is a spirit,' but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally, held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an etherial gas; but still matter." letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." Notes on Virginia
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" Letter to von Humboldt, 1813
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" Letter to H. Spafford, 1814
"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810
"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'" From Jefferson's biography
"I never told my religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I have judged others' religions by their lives, for it is from our lives and not our words that our religions must be read."
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God."
James Madison:
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." April 1, 1774
"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819
"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822
John Adams
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoly, article 11
"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it."
"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."
"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years." letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in In God We Trust and 2000 Years of Disbelief
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles." letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?" etter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815
"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816
"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world." "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardi
"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it." letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Di
"It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [formation of the American governments] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven..."
Abraham Lincoln
"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." Joseph Lewis quoting Lincoln in a 1924 speech in New York
"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." Lincoln in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln
Susan B. Anthony
"The religious persecution of the ages has been done under what was claimed to be the command of God." Rufus K. Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."
"What you should say to outsiders is that a Christian has neither more nor less rights in our Association than an atheist. When our platform becomes too narrow for people of all creeds and of no creeds, I myself shall not stand upon it." Susan B. Anthony: A Biography, by Kathleen Barry, New York University Press, 1988, p.310
Benjamin Franklin
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."
"He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." Franklin's Autobiography
"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the want of it."
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."
Ulysses S. Grant
"Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and the state forever separated."
George Washington
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society." Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792
Theodore Roosevelt
"To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life." letter to J. C. Martin, 9 November 1908
"I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State; that public moneys shall not be used for the purpose of advancing any particular creed; and therefore that the public schools shall be nonsectarian and no public moneys appropriated for sectarian schools." Carnegie Hall address, 12 October 1915
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Theodore Roosevelt wasn't a founding father. Neither was Lincoln. Or Susan B. But I digress.
The quotes you referenced actually don't support your position at all.
Nothing in Jefferson's quotes indicated that he didn't believe in Christ or Christianity, only that he lamented the manner in which some chose to express it.
Same with the others.
Is that really any surprise considering that this country was first populated (white populated) by refugees from religious persecution?
When Jefferson says ""The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." " is that his hope or his dread? There's no context there.
I believe that the day will come when followers of Jesus are mocked and his worth given little credence (Flying Spaghetti Monster anyone?). Does that mean I wish for that day or am comforted by it? No, only that I feel it is inevitable.
Are you seriously surprised that the leaders of a nation founded on religious freedom would be hesitant to hand authority over to a sovereign church since that was the life their fathers had fled to establish this country? To conclude that in doing so these men rejected the tenets of Christianity is a completely illogical leap.
Their position was against a church state -- the type of government they fled in England -- not against the moral values of Christianity.
When Madison says "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." of course I agree. People throughout history have used the robe of Jesus to shield their absurd acts. Oral Roberts locked himself in a tower and said Jesus would kill him unless he raised several million dollars. That was absurd and done in Jesus' name. But you can't extrapolate that to mean that everything associated with Jesus or Christianity is absurd.
Adams questions the acts committed in the name of Christ. How did we get to the point where we are willing to kill because someone believes differently? I ask the same question today. Why do we fight against Muslims -- and they us -- because we choose to worship the SAME GOD in a different manner? Does my question somehow make me less a Christian or mean that I reject Christian values? Hardly.
I know I give you a hard time about comprehension, but in this instance I don't think you really understand what the founding fathers were saying. You're taking their words and using them to create a position that I'm positive didn't exist. Nothing you quoted shows in any way shape or form that any of the men rejected Christianity or its values.
The "church" yes. But you also have to understand the context of church as it existed in that time.
I have no interest in a church state. Doesn't mean I'm anti Christian.
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I'm sorry you took it that way, as that was not what was intended. I haven't corrected Wes in his assumptions, because he is exactly correct.
No biggie. A wise man once told me when talking politics, you need to learn to check your feelings at the door ($1 to wes) Same rule applies to religion as well.
Interesting. So what would you consider yourself? Why mark Christian when you are not?
Pretty much read Ogre's response.
I have read and studied for years. I have asked many questions along the way. Yes, I believe in God, too much going on all at the same time for it to be just one big coincidence in my mind. I believe that the same God wants me to do what is right, live a good moral life, obey his commandments and try my best to live "the straight and narrow". I believe that we are a creation of his image and that he loves us and wants us to love him. Do I do those things? Not even close. I do some things that are acceptable, I donate to charity, I genuinely try to help people that are in need and when they need it. I try to be polite and courteous to everyone most of the time. I go to church from time to time (more often that not). I do a lot of things that make me look good in others eyes.......but.......
Those things are not enough though. I believe that one has to try and live a Christian life before they can even consider to call themselves Christian. My wife is a good example of this. She tries her hardest, she lives her life in a good Christian way 90% of the time. Just b/c she might say poop, hell, damn, ass and bitch from time to time and have margarita from time to time, doesn't meant that she is a bad person or not a Christian. When she messes up, as she like to call it, she knows that she has to ask for forgiveness. She understands as well as I do that the bible teaches that we are not perfect and will sin. She chooses to let it bother her and do what her teachings tell her in order to make it right. Me, I don't ask and most of the time I don't care, nor does it bother my conscious.
The bible, the "inspired word of God" (not his literal word, man had his hand in it so you know some things got screwed up along the way) if you choose to believe it will tell you that many will hear the word and many will believe the word, but many will not accept word. Now when I was early teens I was baptized into Christ, but now that relationship is pretty much non-existent b/c I no longer follow his teachings. I don't believe in the once saved always saved doctrine that some do.
I am too lazy to look it up, but in Peter's (II Peter I think) teachings he says be holy in all you do, that if you escape worldliness and accept Christ only to fall back in, you are worse off in the end than you were at the beginning, and it would have been better to have not known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned your back on it . (Paraphrase) That leads me to believe that one can lose their salvation. Like Ogre said that could be far worse than being an atheist in some Christian's eyes. I may choose to follow that path again someday, I may not. I can't say with certainty.
In short, I marked it, b/c I believe in the Christan God and Christian views, but that doesn't mean that I consider myself a Christian. I don't live my life according to Christian teachings nor do I even pretend to try.
EDIT: These are my personal beliefs, if someone else looks at being a Christian differently, that is up to them and their right. I don't claim to be right, just stated what I believe. I will not judge you nor bash you and your beliefs.
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If we're quoting Jefferson...here is my favorite:
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
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If we're quoting Jefferson...here is my favorite:
And again that doesn't indicate Jefferson's lack of belief in a deity.
Blind devotion is just that. Blind. You should always ask questions and search for answers.
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Theodore Roosevelt wasn't a founding father. Neither was Lincoln. Or Susan B. But I digress.
Fair enough, but I thought they were prominent American figures with quotes that would be shocking coming from a President today. Those you mentioned besides Roosevelt all appear on US currency. Roosevelt's on Mt. Rushmore. That's got to count for something.
The quotes you referenced actually don't support your position at all.
Nothing in Jefferson's quotes indicated that he didn't believe in Christ or Christianity, only that he lamented the manner in which some chose to express it.
Same with the others.
Is that really any surprise considering that this country was first populated (white populated) by refugees from religious persecution?
I think you confused my position (in the third party thread I am referencing here). That is probably my fault, since it may be unclear as to the context of that post. Basically jad was implying that our founding fathers wanted us to be a Christian nation.
Perhaps it is clearer if I presented the previous two posts in the exchange between jad and I.
When social, moral-value type issues take a back seat, or we let go of them and stop fighting for them....the effects are much longer lasting, and honestly, nearly impossible to reverse. Once the Bible was taken out of schools, do you really ever seeing it making it's way back in? No way, that ship has sailed, it's a thing of the past...we're no longer a Christian nation, so the leaders of the left have declared. From a moral-value stance, we continue to erode. If we continue to keep God and Biblical influence locked inside the church, society will continue to slide. If we keep those things locked up inside the church, it won't be long before that's the only place you find what we used to be. We'll be a Godless, European-moral nation on this side of the Atlantic. We will seize to be America.
I'd rather not get too deep in another controversial political thread (especially the most controversial of all topics), but this kind of thinking is the problem, in my opinion.
We were never a "Christian" nation that was intended to have our schools indoctrinate a state religion. To believe that we are is to completely defy and selectively ignore everything our founding fathers stood for.
When a politician starts advocating these kinds of things, or outwardly claims to take the Bible literally, he loses credibility with me.
Now that being said, I can't see how you can look at many of these quotes and not ascertain that those being quoted are deists at best.
When Jefferson says ""The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." " is that his hope or his dread? There's no context there.
I believe that the day will come when followers of Jesus are mocked and his worth given little credence (Flying Spaghetti Monster anyone?). Does that mean I wish for that day or am comforted by it? No, only that I feel it is inevitable.
While I can't say without equivocation what he meant, I feel like equating Christianity to a religion that is completely dead and used only in the context of literature is pretty clearly a statement on the fictitious nature of the Christian religion. I'm not saying it's impossible that he meant what you said, but I think he was extremely misquoted if that part was left out. That's be like quoting someone as saying "I believe in raping puppies", when the actual quote was "I believe in raping puppies being a punishable crime."
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If we're quoting Jefferson...here is my favorite:
That was the first one quoted.
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Fair enough, but I thought they were prominent American figures with quotes that would be shocking coming from a President today. Those you mentioned besides Roosevelt all appear on US currency. Roosevelt's on Mt. Rushmore. That's got to count for something.
I think you confused my position (in the third party thread I am referencing here). That is probably my fault, since it may be unclear as to the context of that post. Basically jad was implying that our founding fathers wanted us to be a Christian nation.
Perhaps it is clearer if I presented the previous two posts in the exchange between jad and I.
I'd rather not get too deep in another controversial political thread (especially the most controversial of all topics), but this kind of thinking is the problem, in my opinion.
We were never a "Christian" nation that was intended to have our schools indoctrinate a state religion. To believe that we are is to completely defy and selectively ignore everything our founding fathers stood for.
When a politician starts advocating these kinds of things, or outwardly claims to take the Bible literally, he loses credibility with me.
Now that being said, I can't see how you can look at many of these quotes and not ascertain that those being quoted are deists at best.While I can't say without equivocation what he meant, I feel like equating Christianity to a religion that is completely dead and used only in the context of literature is pretty clearly a statement on the fictitious nature of the Christian religion. I'm not saying it's impossible that he meant what you said, but I think he was extremely misquoted if that part was left out. That's be like quoting someone as saying "I believe in raping puppies", when the actual quote was "I believe in raping puppies being a punishable crime."
Ok. I can't resist any longer.
What do you care? You're going to hell anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3BDY3tfs8M# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3BDY3tfs8M#)
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That was the first one quoted.
FML
And again that doesn't indicate Jefferson's lack of belief in a deity.
Never claimed it did.
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Hell is hot. I smell funny when I burn. Therefore I choose against hell.
The teachings of Jesus are the only teachings of a so-called messiah that were written down within what would be a normal lifetime. (mohammed was not written about until 300 years after his death. Mohammed has a grave) Someone asked about Koresh. Koresh is dead and buried.(Koresh also has a grave) Jesus is not.
If one is to believe in God and believe that the Bible is his word, then the absence of belief in Jesus as the one and only way to heaven is to CHOOSE hell.
A loving God sent a WAY to heaven. He does not send souls to hell, souls choose hell.
It is very easy to NOT believe. That is why so many more souls will be in hell than in heaven. Also the reason for Judaism being so small is that they reject Christ even though they are God's chosen people. They believe in the Bible up to a point and that is hard for people to join in on. If you believe in the Bible, then how can you not believe in all of it? People ask this question and logically choose against Judaism.
Christianity is NOT the belief that Jesus is the son of God.(the demons believe that and tremble- James) It is the belief than Jesus is the son of God and HE is the ONLY way to heaven. We have been redefining the term so much that folks forget the true definition.
Ogre. Hang in there. Living life for him is difficult but rewarding. As you get older, you will yearn for that reward.
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Also the reason for Judaism being so small is that they reject Christ even though they are God's chosen people. They believe in the Bible up to a point and that is hard for people to join in on. If you believe in the Bible, then how can you not believe in all of it? People ask this question and logically choose against Judaism.
Leaving aside the "why people choose against Judaism" nonsense, the Jews believe in the half of the Bible that was written first. Their beliefs were pretty well established when all the new-fangled Jesus hippies started writing down their tales.
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Ok this is tongue in cheek...so because this is a serious topic...please do not take offense.
Agnostic...Isn't this the Prowler of religious views...I believe in God unless I don't. I don't get it?
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Leaving aside the "why people choose against Judaism" nonsense, the Jews believe in the half of the Bible that was written first. Their beliefs were pretty well established when all the new-fangled Jesus hippies started writing down their tales.
CCTAU, apparently you should be Mormon. You do know the Bible is a trilogy, right?
I know, I know, that Book of Mormon was written much later by different people, and it contains a bunch of far fetched ideas.
So say the Jews about the New Testament.
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Someone asked about Koresh. Koresh is dead and buried.(Koresh also has a grave) Jesus is not.
I preface this with I'm not trying to offend here, only discuss. I assume if you've read this far, you're open to discussion that could potentially be offensive.
But how do you know unequivocally that Jesus isn't "dead and buried"?
Is it impossible for the disciples to have invaded his tomb? I'm sure you think it to be. I find it to be a more reasonable explanation than him ascending to heaven (while no one was looking).
The difference is, you believe that a 2,000 year old text is infallible. I do not. People believed the earth was flat 2,000 years ago. I think they would believe David Blaine had powers from God too.
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CCTAU, apparently you should be Mormon. You do know the Bible is a trilogy, right?
I know, I know, that Book of Mormon was written much later by different people, and it contains a bunch of far fetched ideas.
So say the Jews about the New Testament.
The mormon leaders (Young, etc) did nothing to prove what they were saying. Someone else did.
And kudos to you and wes for at least meeting us in the middle here. Mud slinging will get the understanding no where whilst constructive debate is always good. Perciate it fellas - good arguments Im seeing in the last 2-3 pages.
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I am an agnostic in the fact that I have no idea whether god exists or not. I'm not going to deny the existence of god, just like I am not going to say that he certainly exists. I don't have a clue.
I believe that IF there is an "all knowing, all loving" god, like many religions claim, surely he won't send 2/3rd's of the world to hell for not believing in the correct religion. I have no idea which religion is right, or if any of them are right.
If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.
I am the same way, for the most part. Between being in a fire department, and working at a police department, I see alot of shit; alot of shit dealing with people's lives. I think everything happens for a reason. Sometimes we just don't know for a long time why. If these events are controlled, or guided by, a higher being, I have no idea. I would like to think so. But then again, it could just all be chance and coincidence. I went to church until I was 7 or 8. My parents never made me go, they always gave me the choice. I decided I didn't want to go anymore, so they never forced me to go. I haven't really been back since. I feel that I don't need a church to tell me what to believe, or what I should do. I've read the Bible, and like you, I feel that if the God I have read of does in fact exist, I can't imagine him turning his back on me just because I didn't go to church.
I also do not believe there really is a "right" or "wrong" religion. Believing in this religion will get you to heaven, but believing in that religion will send you to hell. Sorry, I just cannot believe in that. I believe in being a good human being, and that if you follow that general guideline, you will be in good shape.
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The mormon leaders (Young, etc) did nothing to prove what they were saying. Someone else did.
Could you expound, please?
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Ok this is tongue in cheek...so because this is a serious topic...please do not take offense.
Agnostic...Isn't this the Prowler of religious views...I believe in God unless I don't. I don't get it?
Speaking for myself, I think it's just "undecided". I don't know if there is a God. I would like to think there is. I don't reject the possibility that there is a God either, though. I don't look differently on those that do. I simply live my life in a fashion that I perceive is "right". What do I use as a rulestick of what is "right" or "wrong"? My own judgement, and I guess that's what alot of things come down to.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm unbiased towards either side. If it were a "Prowler view", then there would be some sort of bias to one side or another, I think.
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Agnostic...Isn't this the Prowler of religious views...I believe in God unless I don't. I don't get it?
Agnosticism, by its definition, is the belief that the truth value of the existence (or non-existence) of a deity is not known or simply unknowable. It has nothing to do with believing in God unless you don't; it's admitting that you don't currently (or can't ever) know.
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Agnosticism, by its definition, is the belief that the truth value of the existence (or non-existence) of a deity is not known or simply unknowable. It has nothing to do with believing in God unless you don't; it's admitting that you don't currently (or can't ever) know.
I guess I understand the currently not knowing but how can someone be sure that they can't ever know? Does that make them agnostic toward agnosticism?
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I guess I understand the currently not knowing but how can someone be sure that they can't ever know? Does that make them agnostic toward agnosticism?
You can't be sure that you won't ever know. You can believe that you'll never know, but you won't be 100% sure. It's somewhat similar to religious individuals having faith in the nature of God. Many of them admit that they can't know with absolute certainty the nature of God, but rather they just believe it. Many agnostics believe that our inability to know of God's existence after thousands of years of existence is indicative of our inability to ever know.
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Fuck it.
The Earth is flat.
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Agnosticism, by its definition, is the belief that the truth value of the existence (or non-existence) of a deity is not known or simply unknowable. It has nothing to do with believing in God unless you don't; it's admitting that you don't currently (or can't ever) know.
Grow some balls...Make a decision!
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Grow some balls...Make a decision!
Satanism it is... :devil:
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YOU ARE ALL GOING TO HELL!
Except for those of you who are not.
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Wesus....The Alpha and the Omega
(http://tigersx.com/images/wesus.jpg)
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Wesus....The Alpha and the Omega
(http://tigersx.com/images/wesus.jpg)
Is it pronounced "Weeezus" or "Way-zeus"?
I love the pic...but I gotta get you a newer source pic. I'm much more svelte now.
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I'm much more svelte now.
You looked the same to me...that is only from October
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Wesus....The Alpha and the Omega
(http://tigersx.com/images/wesus.jpg)
Nice smile.
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Huh?
I thought Jesus was black?
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Huh?
I thought Jesus was black?
From the hips to the knees....and all the way to the soul, sista.
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Huh?
I thought Jesus was black?
You misheard...Wesus likes the dark meat.
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(http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00334/ed_imgSNN2552B_435_334918a.jpg)
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From the hips to the knees....and all the way to the soul, sista.
aint that Mr. Mister on the radio...stereo?
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You misheard...Wesus likes the dark meat.
Ah yes....I'm pretty sure he whispered that in my ear once or twice.
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You looked the same to me...that is only from October
Hey...I'm down about 25lbs since then.
Thanks for noticing...sniff.
You never take me out anymore!
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Hey...I'm down about 25lbs since then.
Thanks for noticing...sniff.
You never take me out anymore!
Sorry I couldn't tell from the pizza and wings you were shoveling into your mouth. Besides we didn't get to cuddle.
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(http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00334/ed_imgSNN2552B_435_334918a.jpg)
I can't believe it took 9 pages.
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Sorry I couldn't tell from the pizza and wings you were shoveling into your mouth. Besides we didn't get to cuddle.
You know how to cut me to the core, Baxter.
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Huh?
I thought Jesus was black?
Of course he is. Here, let me adjust your monitor's brightness...
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3626/blackwesus.jpg)
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Ah yes....I'm pretty sure he whispered that in my ear once or twice.
I'm surprised that I could form sentences, much less express them.
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Of course he is. Here, let me adjust your monitor's brightness...
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3626/blackwesus.jpg)
I'm gunning for C. Thomas Howell's scholarship.
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I'm gunning for C. Thomas Howell's scholarship.
To many tanning pills?
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To many tanning pills?
I'm a SOUL MAN!
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I'm a SOUL MAN!
Great Movie/Hott Chick.
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I'm a SOUL MAN!
Objection!
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I'm surprised that I could form sentences, much less express them.
I wasn't talking about that time...it was, oh wait...N/M it's in the vault.
But I'm not sure Mexican counts as dark meat?
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Mexican is the new white meat.
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Mexican is the new white meat.
I love those Hott Flautas.
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I wasn't talking about that time...it was, oh wait...N/M it's in the vault.
But I'm not sure Mexican counts as dark meat?
This is a religious thread. Can we start a new thread exploring these possibilities in a new light?
We already see that posters like the two just above will jump on this and derail all of those who are headed to hell anyway.
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I can't believe it took 9 pages.
It's a miracle.
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But I'm not sure Mexican counts as dark meat?
Depends on the cut.
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This is a religious thread. Can we start a new thread exploring these possibilities in a new light?
We already see that posters like the two just above will jump on this and derail all of those who are headed to hell anyway.
It's easier to mock.
Is mocking driven by fear?
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Mocking=I don't give a flying fuck.