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Pat Dye Field => War Damn Eagle => Topic started by: AUChizad on October 17, 2011, 05:08:41 PM

Title: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: AUChizad on October 17, 2011, 05:08:41 PM
The call that gave Boom an aneurysm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uszlIQGmnI

I've heard Auburn fans concede that it was a bad call.

Perhaps someone more capable of objectivity can explain this to me.

To me, it appears that he called the fair catch too late, and the defender had already established momentum, but despite that he still avoided any actual contact.

How is that interference?
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Saniflush on October 17, 2011, 05:14:05 PM
Bad call yes.


The reason it was not called was because of the late fair catch call.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: AUChizad on October 17, 2011, 05:23:21 PM
Bad call yes.


The reason it was not called was because of the late fair catch call.
:blink:

Was it a bad call, or was it the correct call due to the fact that the fair catch was called late?

Again, how is the defender supposed to do anything else when his momentum is already there? And yet, he still did not touch the guy.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 17, 2011, 05:29:20 PM
No contact, no foul.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Townhallsavoy on October 17, 2011, 05:35:18 PM
This video is great for so many reasons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfQ7bl2nvP8
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: AUChizad on October 17, 2011, 05:39:10 PM
This video is great for so many reasons.
Now that was some serious bullshit.

And coach Boom was the calming voice of reason, LOL.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: War Eagle!!! on October 17, 2011, 05:41:11 PM
This video is great for so many reasons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfQ7bl2nvP8

Yes. Yes it is.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: CCTAU on October 17, 2011, 05:41:29 PM
No contact, no foul.

This. But had he indicated fair catch earlier and OM got that close, I think they would have called it.


I think it validates, "If you're gonna go ugly, go ugly early" theorem.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: AUChizad on October 17, 2011, 05:43:58 PM
No contact, no foul.
That's what I always thought as well. Making sure there wasn't something I didn't understand. I thought maybe there was something with if you're blocking their line of vision, it could still be called. But even if that was the case (which would be stupid if true), the fact that he didn't call the fair catch until after the tackler was already in motion to tackle him should have made it clean even if he hit him, no? I may be wrong on that, but it seems to me that with all of those factors in play, there's no way the call on the field was a bad one, no?
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 05:44:28 PM
No contact, no foul.

The rule states that the receiver should have an "unimpeded opportunity" to catch the ball.  In interpreting this language, NCAA Rules Committee and Rules Editor, John Adams, has said the following:

The kicking team is responsible to know the location of the kicked ball.  If a receiver has to run-around a kicking team player while moving toward the ball in an attempt to catch it, then it is a kick catch interference foul against the kicking team...even if there is no contact.

Interference could also include a kicking team member standing close to a receiver, running in front of him, waving his arms at him, or yelling, shouting, or screaming at him.  Interference is a judgment call in these situations.

So, basically, contact isn't always required.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 17, 2011, 05:45:57 PM
No contact, no foul.
You can still get a penalty even if you don't touch them. The player catching the kick "must be given an unimpeded opportunity to catch the kick". So, if you stood 1 foot in front of him and the ball hit you on the back, you would get flagged. Alabama got flagged a few games ago for this. The opposing team blocked an Alabama player into the path of the ball that was coming down out of the air, and the ball hit the Bama player in the back of the helmet. He never hit the guy trying to catch the ball, and didn't even see the ball when it was in the air.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Pell City Tiger on October 17, 2011, 05:48:02 PM
From my viewpoint, the correct call was made. The gatah waited until our guy was on him before signaling for the fair catch. Even then, our guy made every possible attempt to side step him - no contact was made - and allow him to field the kick.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Snaggletiger on October 17, 2011, 05:50:44 PM
Yeah, uuhh..what wrong wit da' refs we got now?  They call pretty good, don't they?


People, people, people....it was Onterrio McProne that was the player in question.  Had there been ANY contact....or a good strong breeze...he would have crumpled like a house of cards.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: CCTAU on October 17, 2011, 05:52:33 PM
Yeah, uuhh..what wrong wit da' refs we got now?  They call pretty good, don't they?


People, people, people....it was Onterrio McProne that was the player in question.  Had there been ANY contact....or a good strong breeze...he would have crumpled like a house of cards.

Shit mane. If dat ball hadda hit McProne, he would have immediately sprinted toward the nearest sideline.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: AUChizad on October 17, 2011, 05:54:40 PM
From my viewpoint, the correct call was made. The gatah waited until our guy was on him before signaling for the fair catch. Even then, our guy made every possible attempt to side step him - no contact was made - and allow him to field the kick.
THIS.

You can still get a penalty even if you don't touch them. The player catching the kick "must be given an unimpeded opportunity to catch the kick". So, if you stood 1 foot in front of him and the ball hit you on the back, you would get flagged. Alabama got flagged a few games ago for this. The opposing team blocked an Alabama player into the path of the ball that was coming down out of the air, and the ball hit the Bama player in the back of the helmet. He never hit the guy trying to catch the ball, and didn't even see the ball when it was in the air.

The rule states that the receiver should have an "unimpeded opportunity" to catch the ball.  In interpreting this language, NCAA Rules Committee and Rules Editor, John Adams, has said the following:

The kicking team is responsible to know the location of the kicked ball.  If a receiver has to run-around a kicking team player while moving toward the ball in an attempt to catch it, then it is a kick catch interference foul against the kicking team...even if there is no contact.

Interference could also include a kicking team member standing close to a receiver, running in front of him, waving his arms at him, or yelling, shouting, or screaming at him.  Interference is a judgment call in these situations.

So, basically, contact isn't always required.

That's all well & good, but none of that stuff happened either. What both of you are describing is basically if OM had stood in front of the player and swatted the ball away, which also didn't happen. He didn't touch the receiver, the ball, or anything. Again, considering how late the fair catch was made, there was nothing else he possibly could have done to further avoid contact, than he did (successfully).
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 06:02:54 PM
Well, I didn't attempt to apply the rule to the call in the Auburn game; I only referenced the rule in order to point out that contact isn't required.  Thus, statements like this don't apply:

He didn't touch the receiver, the ball, or anything.

Once more:  Contact isn't required.  That means contact with the receiver, contact with the ball, or contact with another man's genitalia.

In a bulletin from the NCAA from years ago which attempted to clarify the "unimpeded opportunity" rule, the following situations were given as examples:

Quote from: NCAA Bulletin
As B17 awaits Team A’s high scrimmage kick: a) A85 stands near B17 and shouts at him; b) A55 sprints past B17, coming very close to him; or c) A38 stands near B17 and waives his hands and arms at him. RULING: In all three scenarios, Team A foul, interference with the opportunity to catch a kick. Fifteen yards from the spot of the foul, whether or not the ball is caught by B17 (Rule 6-4-1).

A and C obviously don't apply to what happened in the Auburn game, but B does.

Of course, there's always the issue of whether the receiver properly called for a fair catch.  I'm not saying he did or didn't.  I'm just saying that the rule indicates that interference with the opportunity to catch a kick can be caused by more than mere contact.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 17, 2011, 06:06:05 PM
If there is no contact, there would need to be something overt to call it impeding...ie the receiver having to run around the defender to make it, obstructing the receiver's vision or path of the football.  Contact before or simultaneously with the catch is interference.  Impeding without contact becomes a judgment call, and if the player isn't face guarding, overtly attempting to impede, or obstructing the flight path of the ball, then it should be, IMHO, a no call.  Also, the judgement can extend to the defender's momentum based on the late fair catch call, especially since there was no contact.     Since the "halo rule" was abolished, the intent was that you can get pretty damn close as long as there's no contact.  They wanted this to be a no call type situation unless it's CLEARLY impeding the catch. 
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 06:07:06 PM
And, actually, now that I think about it, the fact that he did or did not properly call for a fair catch is irrelevant.  The player still must be given "unimpeded opportunity" to catch a kick even if he did not call for a fair catch.  Even though the halo rule was removed, you're still left with this vague "unimpeded opportunity" rule which gives the referee a fair amount of discretion to make an interference call even when there isn't contact.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 17, 2011, 06:09:59 PM
And, actually, now that I think about it, the fact that he did or did not properly call for a fair catch is irrelevant.  The player still must be given "unimpeded opportunity" to catch a kick even if he did not call for a fair catch.  Even though the halo rule was removed, you're still left with this vague "unimpeded opportunity" rule which gives the referee a fair amount of discretion to make an interference call even when there isn't contact.

Again, it's now a judgement call when there's no contact.  The scenarios listed above all involve overt INTENTIONAL attempts to distract or intimidate the receiver.   That was not the case here.  Good No Call.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 17, 2011, 06:10:26 PM
THIS.
That's all well & good, but none of that stuff happened either. What both of you are describing is basically if OM had stood in front of the player and swatted the ball away, which also didn't happen. He didn't touch the receiver, the ball, or anything. Again, considering how late the fair catch was made, there was nothing else he possibly could have done to further avoid contact, than he did (successfully).
Fair Catch

ARTICLE 1. a. A fair catch of a scrimmage kick is a catch beyond the neutral
zone by a Team B player who has made a valid signal during a scrimmage kick
that is untouched beyond the neutral zone.
b. A fair catch of a free kick is a catch by a player of Team B who has made a
valid signal during an untouched free kick.
c. A valid or invalid fair catch signal deprives the receiving team of the
opportunity to advance the ball. The ball is declared dead at the spot of the
catch or recovery or at the spot of the signal if the catch precedes the signal.
d. If the receiver shades his eyes from the sun without waving his hand(s), the
ball is live and may be advanced.

Valid Signal
ARTICLE 2. A valid signal is a signal given by a player of Team B who has
obviously signaled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his
head and waving that hand from side to side of his body more than once.

Invalid Signal
ARTICLE 3. An invalid signal is any waving signal by a player of Team B:
a. That does not meet the requirements of Article 2 (above); or
b. That is given after a scrimmage kick is caught beyond the neutral zone,
strikes the ground or touches another player beyond the neutral zone (A.R.
6-5-3-III-V); or
c. That is given after a free kick is caught, strikes the ground or touches
another player.

In that specific case, a valid signal was given. OM was about 5 yards away from the guy and wasn't really running full speed either. He was almost kind of waiting for the guy to catch the ball. Bad call? Probably. I don't see what it matters one way or the other, though.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 17, 2011, 06:13:19 PM
Fair Catch

ARTICLE 1. a. A fair catch of a scrimmage kick is a catch beyond the neutral
zone by a Team B player who has made a valid signal during a scrimmage kick
that is untouched beyond the neutral zone.
b. A fair catch of a free kick is a catch by a player of Team B who has made a
valid signal during an untouched free kick.
c. A valid or invalid fair catch signal deprives the receiving team of the
opportunity to advance the ball. The ball is declared dead at the spot of the
catch or recovery or at the spot of the signal if the catch precedes the signal.
d. If the receiver shades his eyes from the sun without waving his hand(s), the
ball is live and may be advanced.

Valid Signal
ARTICLE 2. A valid signal is a signal given by a player of Team B who has
obviously signaled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his
head and waving that hand from side to side of his body more than once.

Invalid Signal
ARTICLE 3. An invalid signal is any waving signal by a player of Team B:
a. That does not meet the requirements of Article 2 (above); or
b. That is given after a scrimmage kick is caught beyond the neutral zone,
strikes the ground or touches another player beyond the neutral zone (A.R.
6-5-3-III-V); or
c. That is given after a free kick is caught, strikes the ground or touches
another player.

Irrelevant here, EXCEPT in making the judgement call on whether the defender was intentionally trying to interfere without contact, or was merely carried by momentum after the late signal.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: AUChizad on October 17, 2011, 06:17:01 PM
In that specific case, a valid signal was given. OM was about 5 yards away from the guy and wasn't really running full speed either. He was almost kind of waiting for the guy to catch the ball. Bad call? Probably. I don't see what it matters one way or the other, though.
What the hell were you watching? I saw the wave, immediately followed by OM clearly trying to stop by stutter-stepping, and eventually having too much momentum to do anything but swerve out of the way.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 06:17:53 PM
Again, it's now a judgement call when there's no contact.  The scenarios listed above all involve overt INTENTIONAL attempts to distract or intimidate the receiver.   That was not the case here.  Good No Call.

I would argue (of course I would) that "sprint[ing] past" the receiver and only coming "very close to him" is pretty much what happened on that play.

Sure, it's a judgment call that should be made by the referee; I have no qualms with that.  Obviously you can't have an exact measurement for the "closeness" that the ref must use.

But trying to determine whether the player's intent was to distract the receiver?  Trying to determine whether the player got close to the receiver only because the receiver didn't give a fair catch signal until late?  Well, that's irrelevant.

Whether the player intended to cause interference or not, the question is whether interference was caused.  He's not supposed to be "very close" to the receiver on a fair catch or a live catch.  If he is, and if the ref determines that his "closeness" caused interference, then it's a foul.

And, in making the determination as to whether interference was caused, it is up to the ref's discretion.  But, to me, the Auburn player was pretty dang close...I don't know how much closer you want him to be to the receiver before a non-contact interference call is made.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 17, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Irrelevant here, EXCEPT in making the judgement call on whether the defender was intentionally trying to interfere without contact, or was merely carried by momentum after the late signal.
What you're missing is that it doesn't matter if it is intentional or not. I'm not saying that it's a great rule or anything, but intention does not matter.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 17, 2011, 06:23:13 PM
I would argue (of course I would) that "sprint[ing] past" the receiver and only coming "very close to him" is pretty much what happened on that play.

Sure, it's a judgment call that should be made by the referee; I have no qualms with that.  Obviously you can't have an exact measurement for the "closeness" that the ref must use.

But trying to determine whether the player's intent was to distract the receiver?  Trying to determine whether the player got close to the receiver only because the receiver didn't give a fair catch signal until late?  Well, that's irrelevant.

Whether the player intended to cause interference or not, the question is whether interference was caused.  He's not supposed to be "very close" to the receiver on a fair catch or a live catch.  If he is, and if the ref determines that his "closeness" caused interference, then it's a foul.

And, in making the determination as to whether interference was caused, it is up to the ref's discretion.  But, to me, the Auburn player was pretty dang close...I don't know how much closer you want him to be to the receiver before a non-contact interference call is made.

All the scenarios you presented from the rules interpretation turn on intent.  OM's "intent" was to tackle the guy, up and until he gave the fair catch signal, at which time OM was 3 yards away.  Intent matters, and it's a judgement call.  Simple as that.  Losers will scream the refs screwed UF.  Simple as that, but it's a judgement call, and that means if you judge it to be interference, I don't give a shit because you're not wearing the striped shirt and in possession of the yellow hanky.  Fuck the whiners.   
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 17, 2011, 06:25:46 PM
What you're missing is that it doesn't matter if it is intentional or not. I'm not saying that it's a great rule or anything, but intention does not matter.

Um, yes, yes it does.  When there's no contact, it's a judgement call, and intent matters...like standing there  near the receiver, yelling "I donkey punched your mother last night fag", or sprinting by real fast.  Making an honest effort to avoid contact, no call. 
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 06:26:20 PM
All the scenarios you presented from the rules interpretation turn on intent.  OM's "intent" was to tackle the guy, up and until he gave the fair catch signal, at which time OM was 3 yards away.  Intent matters, and it's a judgement call.  Simple as that.  Losers will scream the refs screwed UF.  Simple as that, but it's a judgement call, and that means if you judge it to be interference, I don't give a shit because you're not wearing the striped shirt and in possession of the yellow hanky.  Fuck the whiners.

I personally don't see anything regarding intent in those examples.  Well, obviously the players who are screaming or waving their hands at him have the intent to distract him, but the other one doesn't really show intent.

A player who sprints past, but very close to, the receiver?  How does that show intent?
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 17, 2011, 06:28:57 PM
I personally don't see anything regarding intent in those examples.  Well, obviously the players who are screaming or waving their hands at him have the intent to distract him, but the other one doesn't really show intent.

A player who sprints past, but very close to, the receiver?  How does that show intent?

If he could have given the receiver wider berth, but OBVIOUSLY tried to run by close.  You can't look at people's actions and make judgement calls on their intent?
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 17, 2011, 06:31:12 PM
Final word from me: It's a fucking judgement call, and Auburn has never in it's history won a game fair and square.  We by players, refs, the NCAA, everybody fucking whines, the sun rises, the sun sets, another day, and most of all, another W for the 2011 Auburn Tigers. 

 
#winning   #winning   #winning   #winning   #winning   #winning   #winning
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 06:36:56 PM
If he could have given the receiver wider berth, but OBVIOUSLY tried to run by close.  You can't look at people's actions and make judgement calls on their intent?

Yes, you can, but what I am saying is that the rule doesn't focus on intent.  It focuses on whether the receiver has an unimpeded opportunity to catch the ball.

If a kicking team player trips and stumbles into the receiver before he can make the catch, the receiver did not have an unimpeded opportunity to catch the ball.  It doesn't matter that the offender didn't intend to cause interference.

So why would you apply the unimpeded opportunity rule differently when the interference is non-contact interference?  Either the receiver had an unimpeded opportunity or he did not; the fact that the kicking team player misjudged his speed, but didn't intend to get too close to the player, is irrelevant.  The fact that the kicking team player stutter steps and tries to change his direction of movement is irrelevant to the question at hand:  did his actions, intentional or not, cause interference?

Either he made contact or he didn't; either he came too close or he didn't; either interference was caused or it wasn't.  I don't think it has anything to do with the player's intent to cause interference.  The question is simply whether interference was present.

I'd agree that, in non-contact situations, it is a judgment call, but the judgment to be made is not in relation to the player's intent.  Rather, the judgment to be made is whether interference occurred.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: wesfau2 on October 17, 2011, 06:37:44 PM
Yes, you can, but what I am saying is that the rule doesn't focus on intent.  It focuses on whether the receiver has an unimpeded opportunity to catch the ball.

If a kicking team player trips, falls, and runs into the receiver before he can make the catch, the receiver did not have an unimpeded opportunity to catch the ball.  It doesn't matter that the offender didn't intend to cause interference.

So why would you apply the unimpeded opportunity rule differently when the interference is non-contact interference?  Either the receiver had an unimpeded opportunity or he did not; the fact that the kicking team player misjudged his speed, but didn't intend to get too close to the player, is irrelevant.  The fact that the kicking team player stutter steps and tries to change his direction of movement is irrelevant to the question at hand:  did his actions, intentional or not, cause interference?

Either he made contact or he didn't; either he came too close or he didn't; either interference was caused or it wasn't.  I don't think it has anything to do with the player's intent to cause interference.  The question is simply whether interference was present.

I'd agree that, in non-contact situations, it is a judgment call, but the judgment to be made is not in relation to the player's intent.  Rather, the judgment to be made is whether interference occurred.

I wish you two would just fuck and get it over with.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Pell City Tiger on October 17, 2011, 06:41:45 PM
Quote
A valid signal for a Fair Catch is by rule:  a signal given by a player of Team B who has obviously signalled his intention by extending one hand only clearly above his head and waving that hand from side to side of his body more than once.

Watch the video. The Florida players hand did not go above his helmet to indicate a fair catch. That, my friends, is an invalid signal according to the rule book. The linesman even showed Boom why that call was made.

The correct call was made - Tiger ball at the point of the recovery.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Townhallsavoy on October 17, 2011, 06:42:02 PM
I wish you two would just fuck and get it over with.

No way.  Can you imagine the amount of paperwork that would be involved?
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 07:01:58 PM

Watch the video. The Florida players hand did not go above his helmet to indicate a fair catch. That, my friends, is an invalid signal according to the rule book. The linesman even showed Boom why that call was made.

The correct call was made - Tiger ball at the point of the recovery.

Looks above his helmet to me...

(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4533/flcatch.jpg)

Regardless, you have to keep in mind that the existence of a proper fair catch signal is irrelevant.  Even if he had not called for a fair catch, the kicking team still has to give him an "unimpeded opportunity" to catch the ball; the rule applies to all kick catches, not just kick catches for which a fair catch has been called.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Token on October 17, 2011, 07:04:23 PM
If I'm an Auburn fan?  Good no call.   If I'm a Gator fan?  That's the worst fucking call I've ever seen. 

That's 25% of what makes sporting events great.  Sitting around with your buddies screaming obscenities at the refs for making such a shitty call, when everyone knows you'd be giving hand numbing high fives if the same bullshit call had helped your team. 

Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 07:09:11 PM
No way.  Can you imagine the amount of paperwork that would be involved?

That's the only thing keeping Wes from jumping on my hobbit penis.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Pell City Tiger on October 17, 2011, 07:12:17 PM
Looks above his helmet to me...

(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4533/flcatch.jpg)

Regardless, you have to keep in mind that the existence of a proper fair catch signal is irrelevant.  Even if he had not called for a fair catch, the kicking team still has to give him an "unimpeded opportunity" to catch the ball; the rule applies to all kick catches, not just kick catches for which a fair catch has been called.
It has to be clearly above his head, by the letter of the rule. This photo shows that he didn't do so.

The proper signal is clearly defined in Article 2 of the rule, therefore making it quite relevant to the call.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: wesfau2 on October 17, 2011, 07:16:58 PM
If I'm an Auburn fan?  Good no call.   If I'm a Gator fan?  That's the worst fucking call I've ever seen. 

That's 25% of what makes sporting events great.  Sitting around with your buddies screaming obscenities at the refs for making such a shitty call, when everyone knows you'd be giving hand numbing high fives if the same bullshit call had helped your team.

Whore Shit.

Snoogans,
Ricky
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 07:25:57 PM
It has to be clearly above his head, by the letter of the rule. This photo shows that he didn't do so.

The proper signal is clearly defined in Article 2 of the rule, therefore making it quite relevant to the call.

(http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/8929/flcatch2.jpg)

His wrist and upward is above his helmet on this picture, and that is with his forearm being angled to the right.  Personally, I don't see how this is not "clearly" above his head.

At any rate, the existence/non-existence of a valid fair catch signal is irrelevant to the question at hand.  A player on the kicking team can not interfere with any kick catch.  The rule doesn't apply to only catches which are made after a fair catch has been properly called.

Thus, even if you still believe that Rainey never "clearly" called for a fair catch, that has no effect on any debate regarding the interference call.  Even if Rainey never even attempted to signal for a fair catch, the kicking team must give him an unimpeded opportunity to catch the ball.

The existence/non-existence of a fair catch signal is irrelevant to whether interference occurred.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Pell City Tiger on October 17, 2011, 08:12:22 PM
We'll agree to disagree then. Being an Auburn man aside, in my years as a football referee (high school & semi pro), I will tell you - from my honest & unbiased perspective - that his signal did not meet the requirements of Article 2 of the rule. His hand at no time ever extended above his helmet. Beside & in front of the helmet does not equal the "clearly above" requirement stated in the body of the rule. I would not have thrown my flag in this instance. The SEC official that had the call in this one obviously agrees with my interpretation of the rule.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 08:16:52 PM
We'll agree to disagree then. Being an Auburn man aside, in my years as a football referee (high school & semi pro), I will tell you - from my honest & unbiased perspective - that his signal did not meet the requirements of Article 2 of the rule. His hand at no time ever extended above his helmet. Beside & in front of the helmet does not equal the "clearly above" requirement stated in the body of the rule. I would not have thrown my flag in this instance. The SEC official that had the call in this one obviously agrees with my interpretation of the rule.

We'll have to disagree about whether he properly signaled for a fair catch.

But...do you see what I'm saying in regard to the interference call?  Just because a player does not signal for a fair catch does not mean that you can interfere with the catch.  The same rules regarding kick catch interference apply whether a fair catch was called or not.

My understanding from watching the game and hearing the sideline reporter comment on what the referee said to the coach was that the refs felt the player had an opportunity to catch the ball.  Their call did not hinge upon the fact that Rainey did/did not call for a fair catch.  Regardless of whether he actually signaled for a fair catch, he is still to be given the opportunity to catch the ball without interference.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 17, 2011, 08:43:57 PM
I don't think that anybody in this thread that isn't an AU fan is trying to say UF was screwed out of a win. UF just wasn't going to win that game, regardless of which way that call went. Sometimes the ball bounces your way, sometimes it isn't. UF fans can be butthurt all they want by it, but them playing their 3rd string true frosh QB, missing one of their star RBs, missing their kicker, etc etc far outweighs that call. They had bigger problems.

With that said:

1. It doesn't matter whether the signal was a valid signal. The only criteria required for the kick catch rule to apply is that the receiver is in bounds, and the kick is a scrimmage kick that crosses the neutral zone. The rule applies whether it is a fair catch or not. Period.

2. Intention does not matter. Nowhere in any of the rules for fair catch, kick catch interference, etc does it mention intention. The closest it might come to mentioning it is when it says "When in question, it is an interference foul." That kind of takes the "judgement" argument out of it.

3. You do not have to make contact for it to be a penalty. I mean, if there is contact, then it is obviously a no brainer. But it is not required. Think about it. If it HAS to be contact to be interference, then why don't teams just have their players on the coverage unit just jump up in front of the player receiving the kick and hit the ball? Just put a little more air under the kick and let your guys camp out in front of the receiver so he can't catch it.

It's OK. AU caught a break. It happens to everybody at some point, and the other team will always be butthurt about it. They instantly forget about the last time the ball bounced their way on a penalty. If UF fans want to cry about it, they can fuck off. Every team gets a break at some point. 
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 17, 2011, 08:47:55 PM
his signal did not meet the requirements of Article 2 of the rule. His hand at no time ever extended above his helmet. Beside & in front of the helmet does not equal the "clearly above" requirement stated in the body of the rule. I would not have thrown my flag in this instance.
Ok......

Quote
Interference With Opportunity
ARTICLE 1. A player of the receiving team within the boundary lines
attempting to catch a kick, and so located that he could have caught a free
kick or a scrimmage kick that is beyond the neutral zone, must be given an
unimpeded opportunity to catch the kick (A.R. 6-3-1-III, A.R. 6-4-1-V and IX).
Show me where it says a valid fair catch signal must be made.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: The Prowler on October 17, 2011, 09:05:58 PM
The call could've gone either way. OMac was clearly stepping out of the way and Rainey stepped towards him. If Rainey hadn't stepped towards OMac, he would've been in perfect position to catch the ball. Clark was apparently kicking Knuckleballers...either that or they need to put someone else back there that can catch.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Pell City Tiger on October 17, 2011, 09:11:55 PM
Rainey had an opportunity to catch the ball. McCalebb went to the right to avoid contact and give him the room to field the punt. Rainey moved a yard and a half to that side and initiated the incident.

In my opinion, this still comes down to the fair catch signal by Rainey. Since there is no halo rule in college football, as long as no contact is made by the kicking team and McCalebb didn't attempt to distract Rainey from making the catch; there is no foul.

I think this is what the referee saw, and I still say the correct call was made.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 17, 2011, 09:27:20 PM
In my opinion, this still comes down to the fair catch signal by Rainey.
Jesus........
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 17, 2011, 09:35:08 PM
 
Jesus........

:bc:  You rang?
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Pell City Tiger on October 17, 2011, 09:37:41 PM
Ok......
Show me where it says a valid fair catch signal must be made.
You're mixing up 2 rules, shit for brains. Rainey was given an opportunity to make the catch. McCalebb was a yard and a half to the side of Rainey, and Rainey moved towards McCalebb. McCalebb avoided interference and did not - by his actions - interfere with Rainey's play on the ball. No contact was made; Rainey muffed the catch. No contact + no halo = no interference & no foul.

Article 2 of the fair catch rule tells stupid motherfuckers like you and Coach Boom how to properly signal a fair catch. It's not that hard to comprehend.

Is there a fucking gas leak in your trailer?
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 17, 2011, 10:02:41 PM
You're mixing up 2 rules, shit for brains. Rainey was given an opportunity to make the catch. McCalebb was a yard and a half to the side of Rainey, and Rainey moved towards McCalebb. McCalebb avoided interference and did not - by his actions - interfere with Rainey's play on the ball. No contact was made; Rainey muffed the catch. No contact + no halo = no interference & no foul.

Article 2 of the fair catch rule tells stupid motherfuckers like you and Coach Boom how to properly signal a fair catch. It's not that hard to comprehend.

Is there a fucking gas leak in your trailer?
Rainey had to move forward one step TO CATCH THE BALL. It is the defender's responsibility to know where the ball is when it is in the air. YOU are the one mixing up two rules, and somehow combining them out of thin air.

Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter.

Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it. Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.

I could put it 20 more times, and you still wouldn't get it. He. Doesn't. Have. To. Signal. For. A. Fair. Catch. For. Kick. Catch. Interference. To. Apply.

I understand that you would argue with a brick wall as long as it was crimson, but what you're saying has absolutely dick to do with it. 0. Zilch. Zip. Nada. For once, I'm not being delusional. For fuck's sake, I posted the rule from the NCAA rule book.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Xanusus on October 17, 2011, 10:02:57 PM
Nice. I had completely forgotten about CTT going off on that call and lo and behold it's Muschamp trying to calm him down. LOL.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 17, 2011, 10:17:01 PM
Rainey had to move forward one step TO CATCH THE BALL. It is the defender's responsibility to know where the ball is when it is in the air. YOU are the one mixing up two rules, and somehow combining them out of thin air.

Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter. Contact doesn't matter.

Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it. Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.Article 2 of the fair catch rule has nothing to do with it.

I could put it 20 more times, and you still wouldn't get it. He. Doesn't. Have. To. Signal. For. A. Fair. Catch. For. Kick. Catch. Interference. To. Apply.

I understand that you would argue with a brick wall as long as it was crimson, but what you're saying has absolutely dick to do with it. 0. Zilch. Zip. Nada. For once, I'm not being delusional. For fuck's sake, I posted the rule from the NCAA rule book.

I could put this 5 Bazzilion Gawd Damn times...Contact is automatic...non contact is a judgement call.  Auburn won this argument Saturday night. 
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Pell City Tiger on October 17, 2011, 10:44:28 PM
I could put this 5 Bazzilion Gawd Damn times...Contact is automatic...non contact is a judgement call.  Auburn won this argument Saturday night.
Thank you!

runswithretards, go back and read the last 2 pages of this thread. See if you can figure out where you made that wrong turn. We (those of us without a bucket of feces for a brain) started out with a discussion the fair catch rule, and then moved on to kick catch interference. You somehow got them all jumbled up and wound up giving me a headache. It's no wonder that 99.687% of your stupid assed fan base is incapable of carrying on a logical conversation about football.

Read what I posted on the last 2 pages and then go back and watch the video on page 1. I think you'll see what I said lines up with what the referee called and what the head linesman was motioning to Muschamp on the sideline.

After you do all of that, do us all a favor and stick your head in a fucking microwave oven and turn in on high for about 3 and a half minutes.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 17, 2011, 11:33:54 PM
My understanding of this thread was that a video of the kick catch in question was posted and it was asked, "Was it a bad call?"

There is nothing from the game or from the ref's explanation to the coach (at least from what I've heard concerning that explanation) that indicated it was ever about whether Rainey called for a fair catch.  The issue was whether he had "opportunity" to catch the ball.  If he didn't have an opportunity, then that means someone interfered.

Early on in this thread, it was suggested that the refs not calling interference would have been a bad call if the fair catch was signaled earlier, but that it wasn't a bad call because the fair catch was signaled "late."  This point was erroneous for two reasons:  1)  As long as the ball is still in the air, a fair catch can be signaled; nothing in the rule indicates that you have to call it within a specific time frame.  2)  Interference with the catch of a kick is interference with the catch of a kick.  It doesn't matter whether the player signaled a fair catch or not; he is to be afforded an opportunity to catch any and all kicks without interference, fair catch signal or not.

Based on all of this, my understanding is that the "call" that was brought into question in this thread was concerning the non-call of interference.  The whole fair catch issue was, in fact, not relevant at all.  These two rules are, as Pell City stated, completely different rules that don't affect one another.  But many were mistakenly including the fair catch rule in the conversation thinking that it had some effect on the interference call:

The reason it was not called was because of the late fair catch call.

But had he indicated fair catch earlier and OM got that close, I think they would have called it.

But even if that was the case (which would be stupid if true), the fact that he didn't call the fair catch until after the tackler was already in motion to tackle him should have made it clean even if he hit him, no?

The Florida players hand did not go above his helmet to indicate a fair catch. That, my friends, is an invalid signal according to the rule book. The linesman even showed Boom why that call was made.

The correct call was made - Tiger ball at the point of the recovery.


If there's some misunderstanding regarding the meaning of these posts, then please to be explainin.  But I think it's pretty reasonable based upon the wording of these posts for myself and RWS to assume that several of you were claiming that the "late" fair catch signal was the reason why an interference call wasn't made.

As much as I love disagreeing with Bama fans, those posts, to me, look very much like several of you were jumbling the two rules by concluding that his failure at "timely" and "clearly" calling a fair catch somehow related to why an interference call wasn't made.

I'm not saying...I'm just saying...
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Townhallsavoy on October 18, 2011, 05:52:45 AM
McCallebb vs. Rainey 

Coming soon to a Prosser and Keeton Tort Law textbook.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 18, 2011, 07:20:29 AM
My understanding of this thread was that a video of the kick catch in question was posted and it was asked, "Was it a bad call?"

There is nothing from the game or from the ref's explanation to the coach (at least from what I've heard concerning that explanation) that indicated it was ever about whether Rainey called for a fair catch.  The issue was whether he had "opportunity" to catch the ball.  If he didn't have an opportunity, then that means someone interfered.

Early on in this thread, it was suggested that the refs not calling interference would have been a bad call if the fair catch was signaled earlier, but that it wasn't a bad call because the fair catch was signaled "late."  This point was erroneous for two reasons:  1)  As long as the ball is still in the air, a fair catch can be signaled; nothing in the rule indicates that you have to call it within a specific time frame.  2)  Interference with the catch of a kick is interference with the catch of a kick.  It doesn't matter whether the player signaled a fair catch or not; he is to be afforded an opportunity to catch any and all kicks without interference, fair catch signal or not.

Based on all of this, my understanding is that the "call" that was brought into question in this thread was concerning the non-call of interference.  The whole fair catch issue was, in fact, not relevant at all.  These two rules are, as Pell City stated, completely different rules that don't affect one another.  But many were mistakenly including the fair catch rule in the conversation thinking that it had some effect on the interference call:


If there's some misunderstanding regarding the meaning of these posts, then please to be explainin.  But I think it's pretty reasonable based upon the wording of these posts for myself and RWS to assume that several of you were claiming that the "late" fair catch signal was the reason why an interference call wasn't made.

As much as I love disagreeing with Bama fans, those posts, to me, look very much like several of you were jumbling the two rules by concluding that his failure at "timely" and "clearly" calling a fair catch somehow related to why an interference call wasn't made.

I'm not saying...I'm just saying...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: AUChizad on October 18, 2011, 08:59:17 AM
Two people in this thread love the sound of their voice arguing.

I'm just saying, based on your interpretations of the rule, all one has to do when returning a punt is to wave your hand at the exact moment you catch it, every time, and you'l always get an additional 15 yards. A perfect reception coverage is to knock the returner on his ass the absolute second he catches the ball. OM was en route to doing this when the returner waved his hand (late) almost simultaneously with the catch. At that exact point, OM successfully began avoiding contact. There was no possible more efficient way to do this than exactly what he did. Stutter-step and swerve to the side.

What the fuck did you want him to do exactly?
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 18, 2011, 09:19:42 AM
Two people in this thread love the sound of their voice arguing.

I'm just saying, based on your interpretations of the rule, all one has to do when returning a punt is to wave your hand at the exact moment you catch it, every time, and you'l always get an additional 15 yards. A perfect reception coverage is to knock the returner on his ass the absolute second he catches the ball. OM was en route to doing this when the returner waved his hand (late) almost simultaneously with the catch. At that exact point, OM successfully began avoiding contact. There was no possible more efficient way to do this than exactly what he did. Stutter-step and swerve to the side.

What the fuck did you want him to do exactly?
The fair catch has --N O T H I N G-- to do with it. They have to be given the opportunity to catch the ball, whether it is a fair catch or not. I'm not saying it because I'm an Alabama fan. I'm not saying it because you're an Auburn fan. I'm not saying it to make you, as an AU fan, feel like AU won a game they shouldn't have. I'm saying it because it is there, plain as day, in the rule book. I posted the rule in this thread. For that matter, the rule even states that when in doubt, it is a penalty. They rule on the side of safety for the receiver. The only requirements for the rule to apply are:

1. It must be a scrimmage kick or free kick.

2. The kick must cross the neutral zone.

3. The kick must be in bounds.

Why is that so hard to comprehend? You're being so defensive because you feel like somebody is trying to take something from you, that you can't get your head out of your ass to see it. And nobody here is even trying to argue that it fucked UF out of a win. We're simply arguing the premise of what you're putting out. You're the one that started this thread for discussion, and now you're getting pissy about it because the argument isn't exactly going your way. You certainly didn't mind the sound of your voice and others arguing when you thought you were on the right side of the argument.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: AUJarhead on October 18, 2011, 09:32:30 AM
I love lamp.

Do you really love the lamp, or are you just saying it because you saw it?
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Hogwally on October 18, 2011, 09:42:34 AM
    It was a bad call.  What I find funny is gators complaining about it.  I could load videos of a dozen calls that were worse going Florida's way over the last couple years.  Paybacks are hell.  I just wish the game would have been closer so it was completely obvious that call cost them the game.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 18, 2011, 09:50:20 AM
    It was a bad call.  What I find funny is gators complaining about it.  I could load videos of a dozen calls that were worse going Florida's way over the last couple years. 
Exactly. Every fanbase has had a call or two bounce their way, and that's OK. That's football. People just get butthurt and instantly forget the last time the zebras helped them out when they see a call, or no call, that doesn't favor the team that they like.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 10:06:37 AM
Unless someone can prove it impeded him catching it, then it was a good no call. I think it was apparent looking at the rest of the game that Rainey himself was the issue catching balls, not OM. Dude obviously had the shanks all night. Many credit Clark's punt trajectory with the mishaps more than anything. Rainey had issues with them all night. But yeah, blame OM if it makes you feel better.

He didn't touch him, he didn't touch the ball, he didnt wave his arms in front of him, he didn't stand in front of him, he didn't impede his view that we can prove. Are you guys seriously gonna try to CSI this shit? Like JR said, its a judgement call, and there wasn't enough there to warrant him interfering. You have to go with the no call in that case.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 18, 2011, 10:06:48 AM
Let's make it simple. This is all that matters:

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/runswithxissors/Foosball/au-uf.jpg)

Ball is still in the air.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 10:08:41 AM
Let's make it simple. This is all that matters:

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/runswithxissors/Foosball/au-uf.jpg)

Ball is still in the air.
I can draw a straight line from the ball to Rainey's eyes. And also a straight line from the ball to Rainey's hands. Omac is not between either of them.

Nice try. The only person that can tell you if he was truly impeded was Rainey. And you know what he is going to say.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 18, 2011, 10:42:35 AM
I can draw a straight line from the ball to Rainey's eyes. And also a straight line from the ball to Rainey's hands. Omac is not between either of them.

Nice try. The only person that can tell you if he was truly impeded was Rainey. And you know what he is going to say.
Draw all of the lines you want. Draw some rectangles, ovals, squares, and polka dots if you want. If you truly truly can look at that picture and say Rainey was clearly unimpeded and/or otherwise not distracted, then you might want to consider an eye exam.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: CCTAU on October 18, 2011, 11:07:50 AM
I pray this same thing happens to bammer when we play. The mullet nation will blow a gasket. I will raise my beer a guffaw!
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Snaggletiger on October 18, 2011, 11:14:14 AM
I think everyone is missing the big picture here.  Regardless of whether the correct call was made, the fact is Florida still had to face Ted Roof's defense.  Please don't tell me you think Florida or anyone else has a chance to score points.  You'll lose all credibility.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 18, 2011, 11:14:30 AM
    It was a bad call. 

There was no call.  Therefore no bad call.  It was a judgement decision, no contact.  Auburn wins!  Fuck the whiners, haters, and YOU!
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 11:21:49 AM
Draw all of the lines you want. Draw some rectangles, ovals, squares, and polka dots if you want. If you truly truly can look at that picture and say Rainey was clearly unimpeded and/or otherwise not distracted, then you might want to consider an eye exam.

WAAAAH WAAAAH......this is all about Bammer and the rest of the haters trying to tarnish another win Auburn wasn't suppose to have. Remember, we were only supposed to have 4. And it's killing some people. This "no call" is just like anything else. Unless you know for sure he was impeded, you can't call it. Same thing with a guilty/no guilty verdict in court. You err on the safe side when you just aren't sure. Tell me from that picture what part of Omac is between Rainey hands/eyes and the ball.  If you were to get a back angle of that picture you would see Omac off to the left slightly. How about we just say that Rainey saw Omac coming like a freight train, and the bastard nutted up. He couldn't catch shit all night. Is it not apparent to you that Rainey was having issues???

"Lookatherrr lookatherr, dat dern Aubie don got inda way a-tha ball. Dats a-fowwwll rite therrr. Dem cheatin aubies. Deyz musta paid tha reffs off with some a-that scam newton money from that bank feller"
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 18, 2011, 11:31:05 AM
I pray this same thing happens to bammer when we play. The mullet nation will blow a gasket. I will raise my beer a guffaw!
And they would be wrong for it as well. It doesn't matter what teams are playing.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 11:39:29 AM
And they would be wrong for it as well. It doesn't matter what teams are playing.

Easy to say that about a hypothetical that has about a 1% chance of happening. You would shit your pants if it happened and you know it. I'm talking taco bell and beer wet squirts all in your tighty whiteys. You would come undone.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Snaggletiger on October 18, 2011, 11:41:29 AM
After review, the call on the field stands.  First and 10 Auburn.

Booooooo.....F%$#...Piece of &%*&...Mother %^$#@*&...son of a &%&$#..B0000000.....%&***$#@
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 18, 2011, 11:41:56 AM
And they would be wrong for it as well. It doesn't matter what teams are playing.

They weren't wrong this time.  The fact whiners like you don't like it don't make it wrong.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 12:07:16 PM
They weren't wrong this time.  The fact whiners like you don't like it don't make it wrong.

BOOM (no pun intended). THIS^^
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 18, 2011, 12:09:54 PM
WAAAAH WAAAAH......this is all about Bammer and the rest of the haters trying to tarnish another win Auburn wasn't suppose to have. Remember, we were only supposed to have 4. And it's killing some people. This "no call" is just like anything else. Unless you know for sure he was impeded, you can't call it. Same thing with a guilty/no guilty verdict in court. You err on the safe side when you just aren't sure. Tell me from that picture what part of Omac is between Rainey hands/eyes and the ball.  If you were to get a back angle of that picture you would see Omac off to the left slightly. How about we just say that Rainey saw Omac coming like a freight train, and the bastard nutted up. He couldn't catch shit all night. Is it not apparent to you that Rainey was having issues???

"Lookatherrr lookatherr, dat dern Aubie don got inda way a-tha ball. Dats a-fowwwll rite therrr. Dem cheatin aubies. Deyz musta paid tha reffs off with some a-that scam newton money from that bank feller"
That may be why the gayturds are saying it, but I know it's not why I'm saying it, and I'm pretty certain that isn't why Vandy Vol is saying it. And that's been the hangup in this whole thread. You guys are so defensive of it because you feel like somebody is telling you that AU didn't fairly and squarely beat UF. If you read previous posts, that is not the intention. I don't care that AU won, or how they won. It doesn't change anything in my life. But if we're going to discuss the rule, then we will discuss it. You can skew the argument and try to build numbers by just throwing out there that we disagree only because we want to see AU lose, blah blah blah. But you're not really making a point; you're simply trying to sidestep.

Quote
You err on the safe side when you just aren't sure
It is clearly written right in the rule itself that if you aren't sure, it is a penalty. Exact words: "When in question, it is an interference foul." In this rule, the "safe side" is siding with the receiver. So this isn't really a good comparison on your part.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: CCTAU on October 18, 2011, 12:14:28 PM
It is clearly written right in the rule itself that if you aren't sure, it is a penalty. Exact words: "When in question, it is an interference foul." In this rule, the "safe side" is siding with the receiver. So this isn't really a good comparison on your part.

Hmm. I guess that settles it. There must not have been ANY doubt. Have a shitty day.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 18, 2011, 12:16:32 PM
Easy to say that about a hypothetical that has about a 1% chance of happening. You would shit your pants if it happened and you know it. I'm talking taco bell and beer wet squirts all in your tighty whiteys. You would come undone.
Alabama had a kick catch interference called on them a few weeks ago. How did it happen? An opposing player blocked a Bama player into the path of the ball, and the ball hit the Bama player on the back of the helmet. Bama player never saw the ball coming, and he never hit the receiver. For that matter, it was a bad call because the rule specifically states: "If interference with a potential receiver is the result of a player being blocked by an opponent, it is not a foul."

They threw the flag and penalized Alabama anyway. Did I think it was a shitty call? After watching the replay, yes. But it was what it was, and me getting angry about it wasn't going to change anything, so oh well. I still think it's a shitty call. You win some, and you lose some. There have been a few calls that went our way recently that probably shouldn't have, like the '09 LSU game. And that's how it is. For every few you get your way, you're going to get one or two that don't go your way.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 18, 2011, 12:23:12 PM
I'm just saying, based on your interpretations of the rule, all one has to do when returning a punt is to wave your hand at the exact moment you catch it, every time, and you'l always get an additional 15 yards.

Dude...the exact scenario you've described is identified as interference by an NCAA bulletin:

Quote from: NCAA Bulletin
As B17 awaits Team A’s high scrimmage kick: a) A85 stands near B17 and shouts at him; b) A55 sprints past B17, coming very close to him; or c) A38 stands near B17 and waives his hands and arms at him. RULING: In all three scenarios, Team A foul, interference with the opportunity to catch a kick. Fifteen yards from the spot of the foul, whether or not the ball is caught by B17 (Rule 6-4-1).

I can't help it if you personally don't believe that the rule should be interpreted like that, but it is...not by me, but by the NCAA.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: CCTAU on October 18, 2011, 12:28:36 PM
Dude...the exact scenario you've described is identified as interference by an NCAA bulletin:

I can't help it if you personally don't believe that the rule should be interpreted like that, but it is...not by me, but by the NCAA.

Quote
s B17 awaits Team A’s high scrimmage kick: a) A85 stands near B17 and shouts at him; b) A55 sprints past B17, coming very close to him; or c) A38 stands near B17 and waives his hands and arms at him. RULING: In all three scenarios, Team A foul, interference with the opportunity to catch a kick. Fifteen yards from the spot of the foul, whether or not the ball is caught by B17 (Rule 6-4-1).


Uhh. He was referring to the guy CATCHING the ball as waving his hand at the last second.


And I did not see OM do any of a) - c)!
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 18, 2011, 12:31:31 PM
He didn't touch him, he didn't touch the ball, he didnt wave his arms in front of him, he didn't stand in front of him, he didn't impede his view that we can prove.

Oh?

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/runswithxissors/Foosball/au-uf.jpg)

But, as you said, it's a judgment call.  I don't know what was going through the ref's mind.  But, I wonder how much closer he needs to be before interference is called...because if he moves any closer than what he is in this picture, they'd be wiener to wiener.  And I'm pretty sure that's interference, what with the wiener contact and all..

Again, it's a judgment call.  I get that.  Most of what I've been posting is in regard to the fair catch having nothing to do with the interference call.  By the rules, the fair catch signal doesn't affect an interference call.  There isn't an interference rule for when a fair catch is signaled, and one for when a fair catch isn't signaled.  There isn't a caveat to the interference rule that says if a player signals "late," or if a player makes an invalid fair catch signal, then the kicking team player can get a little closer than he normally would be able to.  If he was too close for a fair catch, then he was too close for a live catch.

Was OM too close?  Judgment call by the ref.  Was OM too close only because Rainey improperly signaled fair catch?  Doesn't matter.  That's my main point.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 12:31:48 PM
That may be why the gayturds are saying it, but I know it's not why I'm saying it, and I'm pretty certain that isn't why Vandy Vol is saying it. And that's been the hangup in this whole thread. You guys are so defensive of it because you feel like somebody is telling you that AU didn't fairly and squarely beat UF. If you read previous posts, that is not the intention. I don't care that AU won, or how they won. It doesn't change anything in my life. But if we're going to discuss the rule, then we will discuss it. You can skew the argument and try to build numbers by just throwing out there that we disagree only because we want to see AU lose, blah blah blah. But you're not really making a point; you're simply trying to sidestep.

There are a few on here I may tried to sidestep, but you aren't one of them. I am saying opponents are going to reason this in any way they can to diminish our success since we were supposed to be a 4 win team. We really didn't beat Fla fair and square. It was those darn refs...right? Egg, Face - have a nice date.

Quote

It is clearly written right in the rule itself that if you aren't sure, it is a penalty. Exact words: "When in question, it is an interference foul." In this rule, the "safe side" is siding with the receiver. So this isn't really a good comparison on your part.
What's not a good comparison is using a rule where the stipulation is "when in question". It was evidently not "in question" to the refs. It is "in question" to YOU because you want it to be - very subjective. He never blocked his view, hands or touched him. The ref saw it that way as well. It was never in question you dumbass, so your little piece of logic is thrown out the window. Now what?

Shall we stop this now or do want to keep chasing your tail?



FULL RULE just for reference:

ARTICLE 1. A player of the receiving team within the boundary lines attempting
to catch a kick, and so located that he could have caught a free kick or a scrimmage
kick that is beyond the neutral zone, must be given an unimpeded opportunity to
catch the kick (A.R. 6-3-1-III, A.R. 6-4-1-V and A.R. 6-4-1-X).

a. This protection terminates when the kick touches the ground, when any player
of Team B muffs a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, or when any
player of Team B muffs a free kick in the field of play or in the end zone (Rule
6-5-1-a) (A.R. 6-4-1-IV).

b. If interference with a potential receiver is the result of a player being blocked
by an opponent, it is not a foul.

c. It is an interference foul if the kicking team contacts the potential receiver
before, or simultaneous to, his first touching the ball (A.R. 6-4-1-II, III, VII and
IX). When in question, it is an interference foul.

Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 12:38:34 PM
Oh?

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/runswithxissors/Foosball/au-uf.jpg)

But, as you said, it's a judgment call.  I don't know what was going through the ref's mind.  But, I wonder how much closer he needs to be before interference is called...because if he moves any closer than what he is in this picture, they'd be wiener to wiener.  And I'm pretty sure that's interference, what with the wiener contact and all..

Again, it's a judgment call.  I get that.  Most of what I've been posting is in regard to the fair catch having nothing to do with the interference call.  By the rules, the fair catch signal doesn't affect an interference call.  There isn't an interference rule for when a fair catch is signaled, and one for when a fair catch isn't signaled.  There isn't a caveat to the interference rule that says if a player signals "late," or if a player makes an invalid fair catch signal, then the kicking team player can get a little closer than he normally would be able to.  If he was too close for a fair catch, then he was too close for a live catch.

Was OM too close?  Judgment call by the ref.  Was OM too close only because Rainey improperly signaled fair catch?  Doesn't matter.  That's my main point.

Rainey has his arms and hands in front of him, unimpeded. Omac is not conflicting with that because he sidestepped to the right. He is not entangled with Rainey's arms/hands at all which tells me he was not in front of him in that picture. That picture is a little misleading because of the angle but everyone that saw it knows that he is to the side in this picture. When the ball is approaching Rainey, Omac is NOT in his way. That's all there is to it.

With white dudes I am guessing it would not have been wiener to wiener right?  :thumsup:
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 18, 2011, 12:40:37 PM
Uhh. He was referring to the guy CATCHING the ball as waving his hand at the last second.

Yeah, I see where I misread his post.  However, he's still not understanding the rules.

There is no such thing as a "late" fair catch signal.  Unless, of course, you wave your hands around after the ball has bounced off of you or the ground.  But as long as the ball is still in the air, you can call a fair catch.

Interference is interference.  Chad's acting as if OM was getting close because he thought it was a live catch and that he could smear the shit out of him.  This presumes that you can get close to the guy when he hasn't signaled for a fair catch, but that you can't get as close to him if he has signaled for a fair catch.

That's not the case.

If you're too close to him before he catches the ball, then you're too close.  Regardless of whether he's called for a fair catch, you can't be all up in his shit before he has a chance to catch the ball.

Remember what players did when the halo rule was around?  If they got there early, then they broke down in front of the player two yards away and waited for the catch.  Chad keeps asking, "Well what was OM supposed to do?"  That's basically what he was supposed to do:  break down in front of the guy, not run up as close as possible to him before the ball is caught.

With this whole "judgment call" thing, it's difficult for a player to know where exactly he needs to break down.  But, based upon the fact that the rule doesn't allow them to sprint up to/past receiver and come very close to the receiver, it's pretty clear that a kicking team player needs to keep his distance to some degree and wait for the ball to be caught.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 12:43:21 PM
Yeah, I see where I misread his post.  However, he's still not understanding the rules.

There is no such thing as a "late" fair catch signal.  Unless, of course, you wave your hands around after the ball has bounced off of you or the ground.  But as long as the ball is still in the air, you can call a fair catch.

Interference is interference.  Chad's acting as if OM was getting close because he thought it was a live catch and that he could smear the shit out of him.  This presumes that you can get close to the guy when he hasn't signaled for a fair catch, but that you can't get as close to him if he has signaled for a fair catch.

That's not the case.

If you're too close to him before he catches the ball, then you're too close.  Regardless of whether he's called for a fair catch, you can't be all up in his shit before he has a chance to catch the ball.

Remember what players did when the halo rule was around?  If they got there early, then they broke down in front of the player two yards away and waited for the catch.  Chad keeps asking, "Well what was OM supposed to do?"  That's basically what he was supposed to do:  break down in front of the guy, not run up as close as possible to him before the ball is caught.

With this whole "judgment call" thing, it's difficult for a player to know where exactly he needs to break down.  But, based upon the fact that the rule doesn't allow them to sprint up to/past receiver and come very close to the receiver, it's pretty clear that a kicking team player needs to keep his distance to some degree and wait for the ball to be caught.
Im with you on that. Unimpeded applies to all returns. We agree. That's not the point I am arguing.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Snaggletiger on October 18, 2011, 12:47:54 PM
If I'm on the other side, I'm screaming for interference...even after reviewing all the pictures and arguments made in this thread.  I also think if it was reviewable, no matter what call they made, it would not be overturned.  JMO, but I think we got away with one there. 

I also firmly believe Auburn was the better team out there Saturday, especially on defense and that they would have won the game anyway, regardless of the way one call in the first half went.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 18, 2011, 12:49:44 PM
Rainey has his arms and hands in front of him, unimpeded.

But, recall the rule: impeded doesn't necessarily mean that someone is blocking, touching, or otherwise affecting your arms.  You could also be impeding his catch by standing too close.  Or just screaming at him.  Or by running past him (meaning to the side of him), but coming "very close."

So impeding someone's ability to catch, according to the NCAA's interpretation of the rule, doesn't always have to do with the physical blocking of view or of body movement.

That picture is a little misleading because of the angle but everyone that saw it knows that he is to the side in this picture. When the ball is approaching Rainey, Omac is NOT in his way. That's all there is to it.

Yeah, the picture is at an odd angle.  But, do you see OM's left foot?  It's closer to the hash mark than Rainey's feet...which would indicate that part of his body is in front of Rainey.

But, regardless, I don't think that his position needs to be focused upon.  I don't think anyone is saying that Rainey's view may have been obstructed, or that he couldn't fully outstretch his hands.  The pertinent part of the rule interpretation is the one that says if a player is "very close" (whatever that means), then an interference foul should be called.

Quote
With white dudes I am guessing it would not have been wiener to wiener right?  :thumsup:

College football is racist.  If they had just left the 2 yard halo rule, we wouldn't have a problem.  But now that they've got this judgmental "very close" rule, white boys can get all up in your grill without having their dicks touch you.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Snaggletiger on October 18, 2011, 12:55:49 PM
Doing away with the 2 yard halo rule is a little mind boggling to me.  With all the rules that have been passed in the last decade alone, all designed to give more and more protection to the players, this one goes completely against the grain.  I have no problem with changing it, just seems completely inconsistent with the way the game has been regulated in recent years.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 18, 2011, 01:03:30 PM
Doing away with the 2 yard halo rule is a little mind boggling to me.  With all the rules that have been passed in the last decade alone, all designed to give more and more protection to the players, this one goes completely against the grain.  I have no problem with changing it, just seems completely inconsistent with the way the game has been regulated in recent years.

Any time you create a rule which relies solely upon the ref's judgment, you're going to have inconsistent calls.  And when you have inconsistent calls, teams will start bitching, especially if that one call costs someone a game.

Obviously there are some rules which, to some degree, have to rely upon the ref's judgment.  But when it comes to something like this, I think that having a clearly defined two yard (or hell, even one yard if you just want to give players a chance to destroy each other) halo is better.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: CCTAU on October 18, 2011, 01:11:45 PM
Any time you create a rule which relies solely upon the ref's judgment, you're going to have inconsistent calls.  And when you have inconsistent calls, teams will start bitching, especially if that one call costs someone a game.

Obviously there are some rules which, to some degree, have to rely upon the ref's judgment.  But when it comes to something like this, I think that having a clearly defined two yard (or hell, even one yard if you just want to give players a chance to destroy each other) halo is better.

Nobody had a problem with it until the damn TV people starting putting that yellow ring around the receiver. Then it was starting to make the officials look bad.
But I agree. I liked the halo rule. It helped reinforce the come-to-gather principle of tackling.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 18, 2011, 01:16:58 PM
Nobody had a problem with it until the damn TV people starting putting that yellow ring around the receiver. Then it was starting to make the officials look bad.
But I agree. I liked the halo rule. It helped reinforce the come-to-gather principle of tackling.

I don't recall, but was the halo rule reviewable?  I assume not, since the "unimpeded opportunity" rule is not reviewable.

I'd say that they should just bring back the halo rule and allow it to be reviewed.  That way, the refs can save face by reversing their own calls instead of having the TV people analyze it to death and bitch about it.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Hogwally on October 18, 2011, 01:26:21 PM
There was no call.  Therefore no bad call.  It was a judgement decision, no contact.  Auburn wins!  Fuck the whiners, haters, and YOU!

     OK, it was a bad no-call.  Jesus, you got some sand in your clit or something?  Are you one of those guys who thinks Auburn NEVER commits a penalty?  Auburn clearly won the game, that call didn't effect the outcome.  If you can't look at that play and see the ref missed the call then you need to have your Auburn colored glasses cleaned.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 18, 2011, 01:29:17 PM
     OK, it was a bad no-call.  Jesus, you got some sand in your clit or something?  Are you one of those guys who thinks Auburn NEVER commits a penalty?  Auburn clearly won the game, that call didn't effect the outcome.  If you can't look at that play and see the ref missed the call then you need to have your Auburn colored glasses cleaned.
Fuck you hog fucker!  YOU declaring it a bad call, or bad no call means exactly jack shit!  It means NOTHING.  It's your fucking opinion.   You can fucking TELL me what you think like it's a fucking fact until the hogs come home, but it's just your opinion, and it's meaningless.  Fuck off.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Saniflush on October 18, 2011, 01:29:48 PM
     OK, it was a bad no-call.  Jesus, you got some sand in your clit or something?  Are you one of those guys who thinks Auburn NEVER commits a penalty?  Auburn clearly won the game, that call didn't effect the outcome.  If you can't look at that play and see the ref missed the call then you need to have your Auburn colored glasses cleaned.

I think this calls for the drunk helicopter.


Oooh speaking of which, I may have spilled the beans to your nieces what that is.  BTW they think you are a lot cooler now.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Hogwally on October 18, 2011, 01:36:29 PM
I think this calls for the drunk helicopter.


Oooh speaking of which, I may have spilled the beans to your nieces what that is.  BTW they think you are a lot cooler now.

     No drunk helicopters.  He's wound so tight I'm afraid his head might explode.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 18, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
     No drunk helicopters.  He's wound so tight I'm afraid his head might explode.

Typical internet fuck stick, thinks you've upset someone because they've told you to fuck off.  Get a life douchnozzle...you're not that important. 

And   :fu: Fuck OFF!
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 18, 2011, 01:42:35 PM
Fuck you hog fucker!  YOU declaring it a bad call, or bad no call means exactly jack shit!  It means NOTHING.  It's your fucking opinion.   You can fucking TELL me what you think like it's a fucking fact until the hogs come home, but it's just your opinion, and it's meaningless.  Fuck off.

Say what you really mean...
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Snaggletiger on October 18, 2011, 02:15:08 PM
Say it, babe.  Cock of the walk, babe.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Hogwally on October 18, 2011, 02:21:18 PM
Typical internet fuck stick, thinks you've upset someone because they've told you to fuck off.  Get a life douchnozzle...you're not that important. 

And   :fu: Fuck OFF!

BORING.......BORING......BORING......

BTW, just went back and watched the replay on the DVR, it's still a bad call.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 18, 2011, 02:23:16 PM
BORING.......BORING......BORING......

BTW, just went back and watched the replay on the DVR, it's still a bad call.

And you're still a hog nut sucking fuck stick
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Buzz Killington on October 18, 2011, 02:24:12 PM
And he is doing a drunk helicopter now...
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 02:25:19 PM
BORING.......BORING......BORING......

BTW, just went back and watched the replay on the DVR, it's still a bad call.

Of course it is. We both have 1 SEC loss. Makes sense.

And yes VV, I agree on the halo rule. It sets a hard boundary for which a player cannot cross. Now its subjective. What is "interfering" to one person may not be to another, like Pigwaller. Apparently it doesn't take much to get in his way. I bet he's a real bitch in 5 pm traffic or at the grocery store.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 02:28:48 PM
And you're still a hog nut sucking fuck stick

Jim, I wish you would come right out and tell us what you really mean. Quit sidestepping him.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Snaggletiger on October 18, 2011, 02:37:24 PM
Jim, I wish you would come right out and tell us what you really mean. Quit sidestepping him.

For real.  I'm tired of trying to read between the lines in all of his posts.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: GH2001 on October 18, 2011, 02:40:52 PM
For real.  I'm tired of trying to read between the lines in all of his posts.

This thead is full of chickenshit Aubie sidesteppers.
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: JR4AU on October 18, 2011, 02:56:59 PM
This thead is full of chickenshit Aubie sidesteppers.

Werd
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: RWS on October 18, 2011, 03:06:50 PM
Gawt damned cheatin' aubs!
Title: Re: Did We Get Away With A Bad Call?
Post by: Vandy Vol on October 18, 2011, 03:07:54 PM
This thead is full of chickenshit Aubie sidesteppers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z92o1P8-ig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z92o1P8-ig)