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The Library => The SGA => Topic started by: GarMan on April 23, 2010, 06:50:55 PM
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Who would have thought we'd ever need laws to start enforcing the laws that already exist in this country?
Ariz. governor signs immigration bill into law
Measure Obama called 'misguided' has raised concern of civil rights backers
Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer on Friday signed into law a new state immigration bill that President Barack Obama called "misguided" hours earlier.
Brewer, saying that the state had been "more than patient waiting for Washington to act" on the issue of illegal immigration, said that the bill would protect Arizona citizens without violating individuals' constitutional rights.
The sweeping legislation makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally. It also requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281/ns/politics (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281/ns/politics)
I'm willing to bet that the beta-males on the board are going to call this "redneck" too.
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It also requires local police officers to question people about their immigration status if there is reason to suspect they are illegal immigrants...
Without federal funding, that won't last very long.
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Who would have thought we'd ever need laws to start enforcing the laws that already exist in this country?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281/ns/politics (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36735281/ns/politics)
I'm willing to bet that the beta-males on the board are going to call this "redneck" too.
This is going to get torn apart.
State says illegal immigrants can't be in the country...Hmmm...Preemption...
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This is going to get torn apart.
State says illegal immigrants can't be in the country...Hmmm...Preemption...
Do I need to define the word "illegal" for you?
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I agree with both the Arizona governor and Obama on this one.
The reason Arizona is having such a problem with illegal immigration is because the federal government has failed to secure the border and enforce the laws that are in place. Because of that irresponsibility, the state has decided to enact a law that ignores civil rights in order to protect their economy, crime rate, and reputation.
I'm willing to bet that this bill will help start negotiations on how to fairly handle the immigration problem in Arizona. We all know the federal government (especially when run by Democrats) will do everything in their power to appease minorities and the lower class. Hopefully the discussions stemmed from this will lead to a constructive solution that's applicable to the other states (Alabama) affected by an influx of illegal immigrants.
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I agree with both the Arizona governor and Obama on this one.
The reason Arizona is having such a problem with illegal immigration is because the federal government has failed to secure the border and enforce the laws that are in place. Because of that irresponsibility, the state has decided to enact a law that ignores civil rights in order to protect their economy, crime rate, and reputation.
Wait... Civil Rights? Really???
I have an idea. Why don't we just enforce the laws that already exist? I know that's a radical concept, especially with the current regime in DC, but it would solve so many problems.
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Wait... Civil Rights? Really???
I have an idea. Why don't we just enforce the laws that already exist? I know that's a radical concept, especially with the current regime in DC, but it would solve so many problems.
They won't. You know that. I know that. It's silly to go on saying "if they'd just enforce the existing laws!" because we all know they aren't going to.
I think it's a great idea to enact this law. It DOES promote racial profiling. And it also causes some other issues concerning the freedom of American citizens. I mean, imagine an American citizen getting pulled over because he's hispanic and drives a piece of shit car. They demand to see his papers; he says his grandparents immigrated legally to the United States. A big hassle ensues, and he goes on about his business.
If that happened to you or any other regular American citizen, you'd be pissed.
Hopefully the guys in Washington will come down to save the day and compromise with a new law that truly gets the job done. Maybe it's just a pipe dream I have.
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They won't. You know that. I know that. It's silly to go on saying "if they'd just enforce the existing laws!" because we all know they aren't going to.
I think it's a great idea to enact this law. It DOES promote racial profiling. And it also causes some other issues concerning the freedom of American citizens. I mean, imagine an American citizen getting pulled over because he's hispanic and drives a piece of shit car. They demand to see his papers; he says his grandparents immigrated legally to the United States. A big hassle ensues, and he goes on about his business.
If that happened to you or any other regular American citizen, you'd be pissed.
Hopefully the guys in Washington will come down to save the day and compromise with a new law that truly gets the job done. Maybe it's just a pipe dream I have.
I truly believe we are beyond the realm of creating a solid immigration law that is effective. If the American tax payers knew the amount of tax dollars wasted by the Immigration Customs Enforcement, they would be seriously pissed. It's a pipe dream, and it will cost the state of Arizona much more than the tax payers are willing or should be asked to spend for law enforcement officers to arrest/detain any person(s) to be in violation of the their immigration law.
Within a weeks time, most local jails in the state would have overcrowding problems as it is a long and drawn out process to determine if one is legally in the country. Even if it only took 3-5 days worth of paper shuffling to determine if the person was legal, that's 3-5 days worth of housing and feeding people that most jails are budgeted to feed.
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Illegal = No rights.
Constitution applies to citizens. Not foreign invaders.
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They won't. You know that. I know that. It's silly to go on saying "if they'd just enforce the existing laws!" because we all know they aren't going to.
I think it's a great idea to enact this law. It DOES promote racial profiling. And it also causes some other issues concerning the freedom of American citizens. I mean, imagine an American citizen getting pulled over because he's hispanic and drives a piece of shit car. They demand to see his papers; he says his grandparents immigrated legally to the United States. A big hassle ensues, and he goes on about his business.
If that happened to you or any other regular American citizen, you'd be pissed.
Hopefully the guys in Washington will come down to save the day and compromise with a new law that truly gets the job done. Maybe it's just a pipe dream I have.
GarMan scoffs at this notion. Don't you know boy? It would never happen to him cause he's a natural white 'merican.
You're assuming he has the ability to empathize with someone of a different race, religion, sexuality, nationality, etc.
Cue some comment about Oprah.
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Illegal = No rights.
Constitution applies to citizens. Not foreign invaders.
Don't get me wrong. I agree with this post.
The problem is the American citizens that you're racially profiling to find the illegal ones.
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I truly believe we are beyond the realm of creating a solid immigration law that is effective. If the American tax payers knew the amount of tax dollars wasted by the Immigration Customs Enforcement, they would be seriously pissed. It's a pipe dream, and it will cost the state of Arizona much more than the tax payers are willing or should be asked to spend for law enforcement officers to arrest/detain any person(s) to be in violation of the their immigration law.
Within a weeks time, most local jails in the state would have overcrowding problems as it is a long and drawn out process to determine if one is legally in the country. Even if it only took 3-5 days worth of paper shuffling to determine if the person was legal, that's 3-5 days worth of housing and feeding people that most jails are budgeted to feed.
This.
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I think it's a great idea to enact this law. It DOES promote racial profiling. And it also causes some other issues concerning the freedom of American citizens. I mean, imagine an American citizen getting pulled over because he's hispanic and drives a piece of poop car. They demand to see his papers; he says his grandparents immigrated legally to the United States. A big hassle ensues, and he goes on about his business.
There's NOTHING wrong with racial profiling. It always pisses me off when shuffling through airport security to see them pull the 72 year old, lilly white grandmother over to the side for additional screening, while they wave through the guy with a turban and the bitch in a burka.
This isn't going to cause any problems in Arizona. A lot of the folks look hispanic out there. I doubt they'll become some police state giving eveyone a "big hassle" at every opportunity.
If that happened to you or any other regular American citizen, you'd be pissed.
Nope! Not at all!!! I've got nothing to hide, and I've got nothing to worry about. It wouldn't be a hassle at all.
Hopefully the guys in Washington will come down to save the day and compromise with a new law that truly gets the job done. Maybe it's just a pipe dream I have.
Yeah... Maybe, if this was magical, unicorn, fairytale land where clean energy makes the world go round... The Democrats will NEVER let anything substantial happen to counter or prevent illegal immigration. They would risk too many constituents.
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There's NOTHING wrong with racial profiling. It always pisses me off when shuffling through airport security to see them pull the 72 year old, lilly white grandmother over to the side for additional screening, while they wave through the guy with a turban and the bitch in a burka.
Except those pesky fourth and fourteenth amendments...
I'm sure you don't think those apply to racial profiling. I look forward to your caveman explanation.
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GarMan scoffs at this notion. Don't you know boy? It would never happen to him cause he's a natural white 'merican.
You're assuming he has the ability to empathize with someone of a different race, religion, sexuality, nationality, etc.
Cue some comment about Oprah.
Does a "natural white 'merican" even exist anymore? Once again, you couldn't be further from reality, buttercup. My grandparents on my mother's side came to this country in the 30's, and they did it the legal way. They both pursued and attained their citizenship, and they both learned American-English. They adopted American culture and kept their native culture to themselves. And, don't even get me started on the mutts on my father's side...
You see, I have absolutely no problem "with someone of a different race, religion, sexuality, nationality, etc." as long as you don't affect me and do whatever you do legally. That's it! There's nothing more to it.
So, retreat back to your CNN and look for the latest marching orders from your Janeane Garofalo... Call us tea-baggers and whatever else suits your enlightened mood-of-the-day.
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Except those pesky fourth and fourteenth amendments...
I'm sure you don't think those apply to racial profiling. I look forward to your caveman explanation.
Well, they shouldn't, but we all know how that "enlightened" point of view has stretched reason beyond all rational bounds. This is going to be like when a cop pulls an African American over in a predominantly African American neighborhood in LA. Somehow, it's racial profiling. It doesn't matter that the officer is African American as well. He must be following the wicked orders of his "white, Christian, devil" leaders...
Of course, there's likely a high percentage of Hispanic law enforcement personnel out in Arizona. If they happen to question another Hispanic about their citizenship, I'm sure that your kind will scream "racial profiling", repaint your rainbow laden parade floats and head out to Phoenix for a civil rights march.
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Hundreds... :rofl:
Hundreds protest immigration law in ArizonaBy the CNN Wire Staff
April 25, 2010 9:26 p.m. EDT
Phoenix, Arizona (CNN) -- Hundreds of people gathered outside Arizona's Capitol building on Sunday in a largely peaceful protest against the state's tough new immigration law.
Chanting "Yes we can," waving American flags and holding signs reading "We have rights" and "We are human," demonstrators kept up a festive spirit as they denounced the bill signed Friday by Gov. Jan Brewer.
The new law requires police to determine whether a person is in the United States legally. It also requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there is reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally.
Protesters worry that the law will foster racial profiling.
"What is 'reasonable suspicion?' " protester Jose Acosta asked Sunday. "Are we going to get pulled over just because of a broken taillight or because of the color of our skin? ... If so, is everybody going to be pulled over?"
Kearny Police Chief Joe Martinez called critics' concerns unfounded, saying the Arizona law enforcement community includes a large number of Hispanics....
Absolutely ridiculous...
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I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the law, but...
On it's face, it is unconstitutional and will be struck down. Sorry.
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I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the law, but...
On it's face, it is unconstitutional and will be struck down. Sorry.
So it's unconstitutional to enact a law that upholds an existing law?
I have no doubt that some activist judge will rule it unconstitutional, but I would just like to know how it is unconstitutional to protect our borders.
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So it's unconstitutional to enact a law that upholds an existing law?
I have no doubt that some activist judge will rule it unconstitutional, but I would just like to know how it is unconstitutional to protect our borders.
To be very simplistic, Border Patrol/National Security/Immigration is a federal power. 1. They do not have the authority to enact such a law and 2. State laws are preempted by federal laws.
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So it's unconstitutional to enact a law that upholds an existing law?
I have no doubt that some activist judge will rule it unconstitutional, but I would just like to know how it is unconstitutional to protect our borders.
By all means, beef up border security (although any solution I've heard of thus far, i.e. border walls, etc. are a lost cause). That's not what's unconstitutional.
Unreasonable search and seizure without probable cause is prohibited by the fourth amendment. Since the majority of Hispanics, even in Arizona, are legal, their race is not probable cause. Furthermore, under the fourteenth amendment, all US citizens are to be treated equally by law. As mentioned, there are a shitload of legal Hispanic US Citizens whose rights would be violated by a law like this.
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"What is 'reasonable suspicion?' " protester Jose Acosta asked Sunday. "Are we going to get pulled over just because of a broken taillight or because of the color of our skin? ... If so, is everybody going to be pulled over?"
This is the kind of think that drives me crazy. IF Jose Acosta IS pulled over for having a broken tail light, he is AUTOMATICALLY crying race. I've been pulled over a couple times here in San Antonio (where, as a white guy, I'm a minority) for not having my front license plate on my wife's Audi (as required in Texas). When I was pulled over, the cop asked for my driver's license.
Had Jose been pulled over for the exact same thing, it would only be because he's Hispanic? We're talking about Arizona, where over 30% of the population is of Hispanic origin....are we saying that nearly 1 in 3 people in Arizona are not allowed to be pulled over? And if they are, do they not have to have a state issued driver's license (since they are driving)? If they have no license, is it not appropriate to ask them for further ID or proof of legal presence in our country? Is expecting a non-white American to live by the law racial profiling now?
I can see one problem, as Token mentioned, about overcrowding and logistical issues. But it's this very issue that I think would keep local law enforcement from abusing this law and going out of their way to act like Border Patrol officers. If nothing else, this may create more cooperation between local law and Border Patrol.
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Unreasonable search and seizure without probable cause is prohibited by the fourth amendment. Since the majority of Hispanics, even in Arizona, are legal, their race is not probable cause. Furthermore, under the fourteenth amendment, all US citizens are to be treated equally by law. As mentioned, there are a poopload of legal Hispanic US Citizens whose rights would be violated by a law like this.
Clarify this for me. Does this law suggest or encourage "unreasonable search and seizure"? If anyone, white, Hispanic, or other, is pulled over, is it a violation of their rights to ask them to show ID? Isn't that pretty standard for any law officer in any situation?
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To be very simplistic, Border Patrol/National Security/Immigration is a federal power. 1. They do not have the authority to enact such a law and 2. State laws are preempted by federal laws.
I know you have me by about 1000% on the subject of law, so these are honest questions.
If you are a local law enforcement officer in Iowa, and you pull over someone who has no driver's license, no other form of ID, are you not legally allowed to pursue questioning about their citizenship just because they are breaking a federal law? Don't local guys have a responsibility to assist in the upholding of federal laws?
Also, I know federal law trumps state law, but is there anything in this law that actually conflicts with federal law? Is this in any way contradictory to federal immigration laws?
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Also, I know federal law trumps state law, but is there anything in this law that actually conflicts with federal law? Is this in any way contradictory to federal immigration laws?
It doesn't have to contradict federal law. The premise is essentially: if the feds have a law covering the subject, then the state law is superfluous.
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It doesn't have to contradict federal law. The premise is essentially: if the feds have a law covering the subject, then the state law is superfluous.
But don't states have all kinds of laws that are in addition to federal law? For example, there may be federal safety standards on gas distribution lines/pipes, etc, but in certain states, or even certain municipalities, those safety regulations may be more strict, extending beyond the federal "minimums" or federal law regarding that subject.
Maybe that's not the case, but I just feel like I've seen such things (where a state law extends beyond federal "minimums" or standards on certain subjects.
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Clarify this for me. Does this law suggest or encourage "unreasonable search and seizure"? If anyone, white, Hispanic, or other, is pulled over, is it a violation of their rights to ask them to show ID? Isn't that pretty standard for any law officer in any situation?
Showing ID is not really the problem. If I get pulled over because they want to make sure I'm legal and it just happens to be the night that I had three glasses of wine with dinner...I'm gonna be pissed.
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It doesn't have to contradict federal law. The premise is essentially: if the feds have a law covering the subject, then the state law is superfluous.
Yep.
Here is the thing, you can make a more strict law than the federal law as long as it's within constitutional bounds. However, in this case, the Federal Government has a specific Bureau that handles these matters...by Federal Legislation.
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Clarify this for me. Does this law suggest or encourage "unreasonable search and seizure"? If anyone, white, Hispanic, or other, is pulled over, is it a violation of their rights to ask them to show ID? Isn't that pretty standard for any law officer in any situation?
Do you really think they're going to be equally pulling over white, black, or Asian people as they are Hispanics, to randomly check to make sure they didn't illegally immigrate from the Mexican border?
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Unreasonable search and seizure without probable cause is prohibited by the fourth amendment. Since the majority of Hispanics, even in Arizona, are legal, their race is not probable cause. Furthermore, under the fourteenth amendment, all US citizens are to be treated equally by law. As mentioned, there are a poopload of legal Hispanic US Citizens whose rights would be violated by a law like this.
Complete bastardization of our Constitution... So, how is this any different than getting pulled over for speeding or a broken tail light and subsequently being charged with DUI? It's the same damn tactic. The officer doesn't have to say he looked Mexican, Cuban or Canadian. All they have to do is ask everyone for proof that they're here legally.
Is it racial profiling when you see them floating into Biscayne Bay in a make-shift raft?
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Yeah. Here ya go.
"It's going to change our lives," said Emilio Almodovar, a 13-year-old American citizen from Phoenix. "We can't walk to school any more. We can't be in the streets anymore without the pigs thinking we're illegal immigrants."
This kid may be legal, but are his parents? If so, don't you think they would appreciate the "PIGS" keeping society safer than if there were no "PIGS"? I wonder if the "PIGS" were nicer back in old Mexico?
Illegal immigrants are invaders and spies in a foreign land. What should we do with spies?
And I didn't see where the law gave the officers the right to pull someone over just for looking illegal. It sounds like it made it OK to question someone if you needed to. Many states do not allow the officers to even ask for papers, even for rape or murder. Maybe this will help get rid of the rapist or murderer before they can commit the act in our country.
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Meanwhile, back in Washington, DC, the enlightened ones...
April 26, 2010 1:32 PM
Obama Security Adviser Apologizes for Jewish Joke
By Michael McAuliff
President Obama’s national security adviser, Gen. Jim Jones, is apologizing for opening a speech to a pro-Israeli think tank with a joke about greedy Jewish merchants.
The opening quip to the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, first reported by The Forward, went over reasonably well with the heavily Jewish crowd, but not everyone was amused.
The Anti-Defamation League, for one, complained, and today, Jones says he’s sorry.
“I wish that I had not made this off the cuff joke at the top of my remarks, and I apologize to anyone who was offended by it,” Jones said in a statement. “It also distracted from the larger message I carried that day: that the United States commitment to Israel’s security is sacrosanct.”
The Forward’s blog, The Schmooze, notes that the joke is not in the White House’s transcript of the event, or in the institute’s video, available here.
So it offered the recounting, here:
A Taliban militant gets lost and is wandering around the desert looking for water. He finally arrives at a store run by a Jew and asks for water. The Jewish vendor tells him he doesn’t have any water but can gladly sell him a tie. The Taliban, the jokes goes on, begins to curse and yell at the Jewish storeowner. The Jew, unmoved, offers the rude militant an idea: Beyond the hill, there is a restaurant; they can sell you water. The Taliban keeps cursing and finally leaves toward the hill. An hour later he’s back at the tie store. He walks in and tells the merchant: “Your brother tells me I need a tie to get into the restaurant.
http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/2010/04/obama-security-adviser-apologi.html
Tough crowd. He should have told a Mexican joke...
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It doesn't have to contradict federal law. The premise is essentially: if the feds have a law covering the subject, then the state law is superfluous.
Unless such state law has higher standards than the federal one.
ie. Federal OSHA regulations vs. State OSHA regulations say like in the state of California.
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Unless such state law has higher standards than the federal one.
ie. Federal OSHA regulations vs. State OSHA regulations say like in the state of California.
We already caused a war over this very thing. Except that now it's being taught as being ONLY about slavery.
Are states' rights something that we will have a war over every 100 years or so?
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I have an idea...
http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:ifilm:video:spike.com:2677619
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This thread is a perfect example of what's so fucked up about all this.
First, it's a crisis situation on the Arizona border. This isn't everyday immigration issues type problems. This isn't migrant workers trying to take jobs in the fields. This is about Americans being in danger, and not shit has been done about it. Or at least not until it becomes politically prudent. Meanwhile, there's murder, drive by's and intentional harm being done on the streets of Phoenix and Tuscan. Not fucking Mexico City, Mexico....US soil.
If Obama, or the the federal body wanted to secure the border, they could, and they could in a heart beat. However, they're not. They're too focused on Goldman Sachs, and Healthcare and how do they recover from the horseshit policies they've forced through over the past six months. Why is Arizona FORCED to do this in the face of a government that has for all intentions, abandoned them to deal with it with their hands tied?
Those that ignore the crisis angle are the ones that are crying foul, and only focusing on the civil rights aspect of this.
Take off the fucking blinders and if it's so unconstitutional, find ways to get the fucking morons in Washington to get their dicks out of the fucking political mule and do something about it. It's their jobs.
This isn't about being racist, it's about keeping drug cartels and all the major violence out of Arizona as it's now out of fucking control. that's something Repulicans, Democrats, and everyone else should agree on.
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This isn't about being racist, it's about keeping drug cartels and all the major violence out of Arizona as it's now out of fucking control. that's something Repulicans, Democrats, and everyone else should agree on.
Rather than treating the symptom, let's treat the cause:
Legalize it.
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Rather than treating the symptom, let's treat the cause:
Legalize it.
I hear ya. Don't have a problem with that whole debate.
I do however think that it's still a long term solution (if a solution in total for that matter). In the short term, there needs to be definintive action by our federal government, and we're not seeing it. Arizona has been put in a situation where they are forced to act, and the only response by the President thus far is a suggested inquiry into the legality of it all? Really? Okay, so what else Mr. President? Kill this effort and people continue to die. So what do you tell the people of Arizona that continue to suffer? I hear nothing.
I have to, sorry, but I have to believe that the innaction on the government side, is politically motivated. How else can you explain virtually no action in light of the recent violence?
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Rather than treating the symptom, let's treat the cause:
Legalize it.
It? Are we seriously calling for legalization of everything now, or are we under the fantasy-land impression that these drug cartels only smuggle fruit, sugar cane, frozen pizzas and occasionaly Marijuana (aka that-safer-than-alcohol-drug)?
Thursday, April 22, 2010
DEA nabs 4 Mexican drug cartel leaders
Men plead guilty to coordinating distribution, sales in Texas
By Jerry Seper
The leadership of a Mexican drug cartel operating in Dallas has been dismantled by a Drug Enforcement Administration-led task force with guilty pleas from four U.S.-based cell leaders and two associates tied to La Familia, a violent Mexico-based gang that killed 20 Mexican federal police and military officers in attacks last year.
Cell leaders Ricardo Hernandez-Cruz, 37; Edgar Gomez-Huerta, 31; Balmer Valencia Bernabe, 34; and Martin Alvarado-Cruz, 33, have pleaded guilty as part of a continuing law enforcement initiative known as Project Coronado, in which nearly 100 La Familia members tied to a drug smuggling and distribution operation in Dallas were arrested. All four await sentencing in U.S. District Court.
La Familia, or "the Family," is one of the Mexican government's highest priorities in its often deadly war against drug-trafficking gangs. Formerly allied with the infamous Gulf cartel, it split off on its own in 2006. Its boss, Nazario Moreno Gonzalez, has preached his gang's divine right to strike its enemies.
The DEA-led task force penetrated the Dallas organization, according to court records, documenting the receipt and distribution of methamphetamine and cocaine from associates in La Familia's home territory of Michoacan in southwestern Mexico.
"Project Coronado, our massive assault on the La Familia cartel, is part of our continued fight against all of the powerful Mexico-based drug cartels," DEA Acting Administrator Michele M. Leonhart said Wednesday. "This organization, the newest of Mexican cartels, is directly responsible for a vast majority of the methamphetamine pouring into our country across our southwest border and has had a hand in fueling the cycle of violence that is wracking Mexico today."
<snip>
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/22/mexican-drug-cartel-loses-4-leaders-to-dea/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/22/mexican-drug-cartel-loses-4-leaders-to-dea/)
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I have no problem with racial profiling. If they are here illegally and we are trying to round them up and ship them back, it only makes sense to check the Mexican looking people to find illegal Mexicans.
If we had a Murder fhere in BHam and we know it was committed by a white guy, I have no problem when the cops set up a road block and check out all the whit guys. I seriously doubt they would catch a white murderer by making sure they stopped just as many black people while looking for the white guy.
If you are here legally and have nothing to hide, show your ID and move on.
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I have no problem with racial profiling. If they are here illegally and we are trying to round them up and ship them back, it only makes sense to check the Mexican looking people to find illegal Mexicans.
If we had a Murder fhere in BHam and we know it was committed by a white guy, I have no problem when the cops set up a road block and check out all the whit guys. I seriously doubt they would catch a white murderer by making sure they stopped just as many black people while looking for the white guy.
If you are here legally and have nothing to hide, show your ID and move on.
This. I guess what makes the racism argument that much more asinine, is the latinos and mexicans calling racism, refusing to help solve a problem that effects them so adversely as well. If I wanted the heat off my people, I'd be asking what papers do I need and what do I need to do to get through this crisis so that we could move on with life. No, it's just another plot by the man to bring down my people though...automatic knee jerk bullshit.
Ba...I knew I shouldn't have jumped in the political forum..haha...
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It? Are we seriously calling for legalization of everything now, or are we under the fantasy-land impression that these drug cartels only smuggle fruit, sugar cane, frozen pizzas and occasionaly Marijuana (aka that-safer-than-alcohol-drug)?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/22/mexican-drug-cartel-loses-4-leaders-to-dea/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/22/mexican-drug-cartel-loses-4-leaders-to-dea/)
No and No. Forgive me for trying to bring some levity.
Disclaimer - I still support legalization of marijuana.
If you are here legally and have nothing to hide, show your ID and move on.
I abhor this "nothing to hide, so no problem" attitude. It doesn't matter if I have anything to hide or not. That is not the standard to apply. This is not directed at you solely, Mark, but that attitude seems to always come from the comfortable class of folk that enjoy all of the built in benefits of their birth (read: white males).
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Yeah. Here ya go.
This kid may be legal, but are his parents? If so, don't you think they would appreciate the "PIGS" keeping society safer than if there were no "PIGS"? I wonder if the "PIGS" were nicer back in old Mexico?
[Illegal immigrants are invaders and spies in a foreign land. What should we do with spies?
And I didn't see where the law gave the officers the right to pull someone over just for looking illegal. It sounds like it made it OK to question someone if you needed to. Many states do not allow the officers to even ask for papers, even for rape or murder. Maybe this will help get rid of the rapist or murderer before they can commit the act in our country.
:blink:
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I abhor this "nothing to hide, so no problem" attitude. It doesn't matter if I have anything to hide or not. That is not the standard to apply. This is not directed at you solely, Mark, but that attitude seems to always come from the comfortable class of folk that enjoy all of the built in benefits of their birth (read: white males).
What would be your answer to the immediate issue of violence along the border in Arizona, Wes? I can understand the unconsitutional issues at hand here. I do however have issues with those that propose what's wrong with what Arizona's doing, while not addressing the immediate danger at hand, and why the state felt compelled to its decision.
Anything? Or, do we just wait for the political responses after November, say after another couple dozen people are killed? I'm not saying you're wrong with your thoughts. They're based on facts and law. I do want to know what the federal government can, and would do to take care of this problem that is turning Arizona into a national debate for all the wrong reasons. My belief is that the Obama adminstration, as well as a majority of democrats would rather see nothing done until they've maximized the embarrassment and turmoil caused against the republican party over what's seen as just another racial divide and immigration road-block, as opposed to stopping violence on the streets of an American state. My impression is that the average Arizonian would just like to see the violence stopped, and this legislation as a tool to help in that fight.
Educate me on the action at hand. Bush administration was berated for non-action after Katrina by all the same minorities and democrats. Is this lesser of a crisis because it's fewer people for now? Or do we wait until there's an all out race war in Arizona? At that point, how will it STILL be spun as a republican failure?
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I abhor this "nothing to hide, so no problem" attitude. It doesn't matter if I have anything to hide or not. That is not the standard to apply. This is not directed at you solely, Mark, but that attitude seems to always come from the comfortable class of folk that enjoy all of the built in benefits of their birth (read: white males).
[/quote]
Well you see, since my "built in benefits" REQUIRE me to pay a larger than average share of their benefits, I get to have this attitude if I prefer. When they start paying their fair share they can bitch more about being treated fairly.
Oh and by the way, they are here illegally. By some estimates as many as 20,000,000 of them. That is a whopping 6% of the entire US population. In 2008 there were 50 million hispanics in the US. That means that 40% of all hispanics are here illegally. If I can profile a certain criminal class and catch 4 criminals for every 10 people I "pull" over, I say it is well worth it.
Imagine if you had a "profile" for sex offenders that was so on cue that you would catch 4 of them for every 10 people you checked, would you not be for "profiling" sex offenders?
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I abhor this "nothing to hide, so no problem" attitude. It doesn't matter if I have anything to hide or not. That is not the standard to apply. This is not directed at you solely, Mark, but that attitude seems to always come from the comfortable class of folk that enjoy all of the built in benefits of their birth (read: white males).
The assumption here is that only Hispanics and other foreign looking individuals will be inconvenienced by this thing. Besides the fact that the officer will likely be Hispanic as well, how else do we find illegal aliens? (Oh... Sorry... My bad... We're supposed to call them "undocumented workers" now.)
By the way, isn't it the same thing when a person of a particular ethnicity commits a crime, and his description is shared on those Amber Alerts, APBs and other facilities? What really makes this any different?
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Rather than treating the symptom, let's treat the cause:
Legalize it.
Not sure where I stand on legalizing marijuana, mostly because I've never given it too much thought really. My initial thought is that I don't like it. Mostly because the vast majority of pot smokers I've known (and know) are pretty much useless to society. Not because of their intelligence or their ability, but because that "culture" breeds laziness. Of course, this isn't true for everyone, and there are lots of pot smoking brilliant doctors and lawyers, etc. I'm talking of my experience and your typical pot-smoker, not the exceptions, of where there are many.
Anyway, as for how it relates to this immigration debate...I don't see it as a big connection, or at least to me, not much of an impact in the big picture. The drug dealing illegal immigrant is not the biggest problem I don't think. It's crime in general and tax payer expense in general that comes with allowing people to just stroll into our country uncontrolled and outside of the proper channels. Our prison systems are already 30+% occupied by illegal aliens (over 40% in some SW states). Then throw in the burden it puts on the health care and legal systems (as well as insurance companies).
In the end, there are a million reasons why illegal immigrants are bad for the United States. It's not that Mexicans are bad, or that Cubans are bad, anymore than a Canadian or a German is bad. It has nothing to do with where you're from. It's not going through the proper channels to become an American that is the problem.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/305516/statistics_crimes_commited_by_illegal.html (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/305516/statistics_crimes_commited_by_illegal.html)
Illegal immigrants cause many problems for The United States. Sometimes referred to as Illegal Aliens, these people have entered the United States via illegal methods. The FBI recently
issued a set of statistics regarding crimes committed by illegal immigrants in the United States. The numbers are alarming.
In Los Angeles, over 95% of arrest warrants issued for the crime of murder are for illegal aliens. At least 83% of arrest warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens. The number climbs to 86% for Albuquerque. The most wanted lists for each of these cities is comprised of at least 75% illegal aliens.
The problem of prison overcrowding in California has been in the media many times over the past few months. Governor Schwarzenegger has attempted to gain relief from the overcrowding problem by shipping inmates to facilities in other states. Nearly 25% of the California prison population is comprised of illegal aliens. In Arizona, illegal aliens make up over 40% of the prison population and in New Mexico, the number is nearly 50%.
Illegal aliens account for nearly 30% of prison populations nationwide. This includes both state and federal prisons. The cost to house these illegal aliens is more than $1.6 billion dollars each year.
Statistics from 2005 indicate that over 75% of automobile thefts that occurred in Arizona, Nevada, California, Texas, and New Mexico were either stolen by illegal aliens or used to transport illegal aliens. Almost half of the drivers stopped in California for traffic violations have no driver's license, insurance, or registration. 92% of those are illegal aliens. In Arizona, 63% of those stopped have no license, registration or insurance and 97% of those people are illegal aliens. New Mexico's percentages are 66% stopped with no license, insurance and registration and 98% of those are illegal aliens.
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Anyway, as for how it relates to this immigration debate...I don't see it as a big connection, or at least to me, not much of an impact in the big picture. The drug dealing illegal immigrant is not the biggest problem I don't think. It's crime in general and tax payer expense in general that comes with allowing people to just stroll into our country uncontrolled and outside of the proper channels. Our prison systems are already 30+% occupied by illegal aliens (over 40% in some SW states). Then throw in the burden it puts on the health care and legal systems (as well as insurance companies).
In the end, there are a million reasons why illegal immigrants are bad for the United States. It's not that Mexicans are bad, or that Cubans are bad, anymore than a Canadian or a German is bad. It has nothing to do with where you're from. It's not going through the proper channels to become an American that is the problem.
I agree, actually.
So...what about lowering the barriers to entry? Not every Mexican that wants to come to the US is a criminal.
Mark - I sympathize a bit, since I enjoy those same benefits. My comments about the "nothin to hide" comment are a carryover from the debates over the Patriot Act. I can't tell you how many times I heard "screw the 4th amendment, if you ain't got nothin to hide then you don't have nothin to worry about". It was a poor position then and it remains a poor position on this issue.
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So...what about lowering the barriers to entry? Not every Mexican that wants to come to the US is a criminal.
While this may be true, EVERY Mexican that comes to the US illegally IS A CRIMINAL and thus should be treated as one.
Not every "rich taxpayer" that does not wnat to pay taxes is a criminal, however EVERY one that evades said taxes is a criminal and should be treated as such. I could go on and on the "not every" examples all day. Bottom line is a criminal is a criminal and should be treated as one. Throw them in jail or deprt them. I prefer deportation as it is not my responsibility to pay for their incarceration.
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While this may be true, EVERY Mexican that comes to the US illegally IS A CRIMINAL and thus should be treated as one.
Not every "rich taxpayer" that does not wnat to pay taxes is a criminal, however EVERY one that evades said taxes is a criminal and should be treated as such. I could go on and on the "not every" examples all day. Bottom line is a criminal is a criminal and should be treated as one. Throw them in jail or deprt them. I prefer deportation as it is not my responsibility to pay for their incarceration.
I agree. If they are here illegally, then they are criminals. Though, the difference I believe is that if there were a legal option, the majority would take it.
I support relaxing the immigration quota and offering an amnesty process for anyone willing to submit to the proper process. Anyone unwilling to go through the proper channels should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
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So...what about lowering the barriers to entry?
How about making it tougher?
or...
Can we let them live with you, and then maybe let you pay 100% for their well being also? I'm already paying too much towards the shortfall in a horrible economy and paying for the ones that are already here legally, let alone illegally.
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I agree. If they are here illegally, then they are criminals. Though, the difference I believe is that if there were a legal option, the majority would take it.
I support relaxing the immigration quota and offering an amnesty process for anyone willing to submit to the proper process. Anyone unwilling to go through the proper channels should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
This.
We are NEVER going to deport 12 million illegal immigrants. If we tried, there would be mass rioting from both the immigrants and the sympathizers.
Also, how the hell are you going to know where to deport them to? The majority might be Mexican, but there are a lot of immigrants here illegally from Central America and South America. For example, I teach three Colombian students, four students from El Salvador, and one from Argentina. You going to round them up and ship them back to Mexico?
The best solution is to beef up the border with high tech security and some kind of wall. Then grant amnesty to the illegals here who are attempting to work/raise a family. Give more resources to INS so that they can locate and deport those who do not wish to take advantage of the amnesty.
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I've also noticed how this has STILL maintained a typical any time of the year immigration debate.
That's not what this was about. It was about Arizona and it trying to wrangle the violence happening in their state because of an unsecure border. Nobody has ANY executable option as to how to stop the violence and secure the border in the short term. Only thing here is a bunch of shit about how racist Arizona legislation is, and how dare they when the federal government has done so much already...errr wait...Oh yeah, they haven't taken any steps to help at this point.
The best solution is to beef up the border with high tech security and some kind of wall. Then grant amnesty to the illegals here who are attempting to work/raise a family. Give more resources to INS so that they can locate and deport those who do not wish to take advantage of the amnesty.
I've seen NOTHING from a democrat suggesting this. This is the first time I've seen a suggestion on handling the issues immediately at hand.
....I agree with this.
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I agree. If they are here illegally, then they are criminals. Though, the difference I believe is that if there were a legal option, the majority would take it.
Fantasy-land again... There is a legal option to get into this country. Nothing more needs to be done. If anything, we should get rid of the anchor-baby laws and make things even tougher.
The best solution is to beef up the border with high tech security and some kind of wall. Then grant amnesty to the illegals here who are attempting to work/raise a family. Give more resources to INS so that they can locate and deport those who do not wish to take advantage of the amnesty.
Amnesty? Are you kidding??? We already tried that, and they keep coming. They just figure that we'll do it again. Enough is enough. Let's get serious about this. Let's get some real penalties out there, and let's assign some of the responsibility on their countries of origin.
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Amnesty? Are you kidding??? We already tried that, and they keep coming. They just figure that we'll do it again. Enough is enough. Let's get serious about this. Let's get some real penalties out there, and let's assign some of the responsibility on their countries of origin.
Like what? Place sanctions on Mexico? Threated to hinder their booming economy?
They kept coming because we didn't build The Great Wall of Mexico. We could send two messages at once:
1. Fuck Mexicans crossing the border. They ain't welcome here no more.
2. Fuck China with their up and coming nonsense. Not even their wall compares to something American made.
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The state of Arizona is pissed because they have a serious illegal immigration problem. They contact the Immigration and Customs Enforcement about getting the majority of their law enforcement trained and certified in the 287 G program. The federal government tells them they have no problem with it, but the departments are going to have to send them to an extensive class and the department will have to cover all expenses. The upper echelon in the Arizona governing body decides this is bullshit and they don't have to be certified in shit.
I spend the last 32 hours in Alexandria, LA working for ICE and this is what I've been told of the situation.
Here's a link to the 287 g program which would give the Arizona law enforcement officers the training they would need to handle their business. http://www.ice.gov/partners/287g/Section287_g.htm (http://www.ice.gov/partners/287g/Section287_g.htm)
It should be noted that 7 different agencies in Arizona already have the training needed. Hell, Alabama even has one or two agencies with trained 287 G officers......
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Like what? Place sanctions on Mexico? Threated to hinder their booming economy?
Well, yes... You'd be surprised how much Mexico has and how much they get from us in trade. We could have them policing the border just as much as we should be now.
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Fantasy-land again... There is a legal option to get into this country. Nothing more needs to be done. If anything, we should get rid of the anchor-baby laws and make things even tougher.
Yes, Ron, I realize that there exist legal means for entering the country. The demand is far outstripping the supply, however, and I think it's time to re-examine the immigration quota vis a vis Mexico/Central America to see if a higher threshold might be a workable solution.
Given the option, the vast majority of these immigrants would prefer to be here legally. If they are, then they can be properly taxed and they can pay their fair share for the infrastructure and services they utilize.
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Well, yes... You'd be surprised how much Mexico has and how much they get from us in trade. We could have them policing the border just as much as we should be now.
Hahahaha, Yeah sure. I'm sure that's right on top of their list...right above stopping the drug war.
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They are illegal invaders and should be shot as soon as they step foot on US soil. Yes. All of them. It won't take long for them to understand that the invasion is over. If they are here illegally and commit a crime, immediate exportation. Since they will be shot when trying to come back, that will take care of the multiple re-entry issue. Mexico is not as forgiving as we are when illegals enter their country. Their jails and prisons are not nearly as nice as ours and their people could give a shit less as to how many and which Americans are in their government hotels.
As harsh as it seems, we need to be vigilant and a heartless about this to an extent. We are being invaded and all the libs can see are helpless victims, and more votes.
I am all about helping those in need. But we need to help our own before we can take in refugees that never leave from the south.
I am all for you sympathizers doing what was suggested before, take in these illegal and pay for them yourselves. Be their sponsors. If they commit a crime, be responsible for it. Put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is and leave the rest of us alone.
And if states like Arizona want to completely close their borders with force against illegal invaders, then they have that right. And that responsibility to their residents.
As for deportation and where they came from, 99% came here through Mexico. We just send them back to their last stop. After that, Mexico can deal with them since they did not stop them from coming into their country to begin with. This border crossing thing is beginning to look like the lottery. As soon as they get here, they win.
The world IS black and white sometimes. This is one of those times.
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They are illegal invaders and should be shot as soon as they step foot on US soil. Yes. All of them. It won't take long for them to understand that the invasion is over. If they are here illegally and commit a crime, immediate exportation. Since they will be shot when trying to come back, that will take care of the multiple re-entry issue. Mexico is not as forgiving as we are when illegals enter their country. Their jails and prisons are not nearly as nice as ours and their people could give a poop less as to how many and which Americans are in their government hotels.
As harsh as it seems, we need to be vigilant and a heartless about this to an extent. We are being invaded and all the libs can see are helpless victims, and more votes.
I am all about helping those in need. But we need to help our own before we can take in refugees that never leave from the south.
I am all for you sympathizers doing what was suggested before, take in these illegal and pay for them yourselves. Be their sponsors. If they commit a crime, be responsible for it. Put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is and leave the rest of us alone.
And if states like Arizona want to completely close their borders with force against illegal invaders, then they have that right. And that responsibility to their residents.
As for deportation and where they came from, 99% came here through Mexico. We just send them back to their last stop. After that, Mexico can deal with them since they did not stop them from coming into their country to begin with. This border crossing thing is beginning to look like the lottery. As soon as they get here, they win.
The world IS black and white someti
This is one of those times.
But teh Demos and Obamanation will lose a ton of future constituents. The issue is really as simple as that. You think liberals and liberal GOPs want to let the floodgates open just to "be nice"? Hell no - this issue has been exploited to be about potential voters. Most of those illegal fuckers want to come here and dip into our lunch bag and leave us the fucking crumbs. I'm with CCTAU - Illegal , shoot em on site. They will get the idea soon enough - after having to come and clean up dead bodies at the border enough times.
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The issue is really as simple as that.
No, it's not.
And...
The world IS black and white sometimes. This is one of those times.
No, it's not.
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Yes, Ron, I realize that there exist legal means for entering the country. The demand is far outstripping the supply, however, and I think it's time to re-examine the immigration quota vis a vis Mexico/Central America to see if a higher threshold might be a workable solution.
Given the option, the vast majority of these immigrants would prefer to be here legally. If they are, then they can be properly taxed and they can pay their fair share for the infrastructure and services they utilize.
You do realize that there are serious problems in California, Arizona, New Mexico and even Texas with illegal aliens burdening our schools, healthcare system and other facilities? By the way, even many of the illegals who use fictitious SS#s for jobs still get taxed. They're probably already paying more than their "fair share" since they won't be filing tax returns as illegal aliens.
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Hahahaha, Yeah sure. I'm sure that's right on top of their list...right above stopping the drug war.
Oh... What does Oprah say on the subject?
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You do realize that there are serious problems in California, Arizona, New Mexico and even Texas with illegal aliens burdening our schools, healthcare system and other facilities?
Yes, I do realize that. Thus my suggestion that we do what we can to document/legitimize those without history of violent crime and begin to make them less of an illegal burden and more of a legal contributing force.
By the way, even many of the illegals who use fictitious SS#s for jobs still get taxed. They're probably already paying more than their "fair share" since they won't be filing tax returns as illegal aliens.
I understand this, and I do not have the numbers, but I would think (opinion without referential basis alert!!!) that the vast majority do not have false SS#s.
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No, it's not.
And...
No, it's not.
I was being very facetious there on that statement - emphasis being on "simple as that". But dont think that doesnt play into it some.
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Oh... What does Oprah say on the subject?
She says that you should read a book on her bestsellers list, "10 easy steps to stop watching Foxnews."
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She says that you should read a book on her bestsellers list, "10 easy steps to stop watching Foxnews."
So will there be books on CNN and CBS(from the last 50 years) as well?
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Yes, I do realize that. Thus my suggestion that we do what we can to document/legitimize those without history of violent crime and begin to make them less of an illegal burden and more of a legal contributing force.
I've only had indirect experience with this, but the process is already so easy that I can't see any reason to make the process any easier. As far as I'm concerned, the only reason that so many are here illegally is because there's no real penalty, fine or punishment associated with the violation.
I understand this, and I do not have the numbers, but I would think (opinion without referential basis alert!!!) that the vast majority do not have false SS#s.
In Georgia, an awful lot of them do, and because of the way the laws are written, you can't do anything to challenge or prevent employment when you suspect a fraudulent SS#.
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I've only had indirect experience with this, but the process is already so easy that I can't see any reason to make the process any easier. As far as I'm concerned, the only reason that so many are here illegally is because there's no real penalty, fine or punishment associated with the violation.
I'm not suggesting that the process be made simpler. I'm suggesting that we increase the number of immigrants allowed in per year. The current quota is much too low, obviously.
In Georgia, an awful lot of them do, and because of the way the laws are written, you can't do anything to challenge or prevent employment when you suspect a fraudulent SS#.
I'll cop to my ignorance on this aspect of the issue.
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She says that you should read a book on her bestsellers list, "10 easy steps to stop watching Foxnews."
I guess she forgot to tell you that Mexico is the sixth largest oil producer in the world.
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I guess she forgot to tell you that Mexico is the sixth largest oil producer in the world.
Or about the current drug war that has claimed the lives of thousands, she forgot to tell me about that too.
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She says that you should read a book on her bestsellers list, "10 easy steps to stop watching Foxnews."
I watch Fox news (the only news I watch), listen to Rush, Glenn Beck, and Jason Lewis and I still think the law is horribly written. It encourages racial profiling through asking for papers from people that might be illegal because they're hispanic. This is going to put a burden on local governments who are going to have to fight lawsuits for civil rights violations. The law also allows private citizens to bring lawsuits against local governments, when they don't think that the local government is enforcing the law. So that means that there's potential for one municipality to probably have to fight lawsuits coming from both sides multiple times. Sounds like a great law :blink:.
Btw latinos are the safest and most efficient construction workers that I have ever been around when I was doing construction. My dad said, when he was a QC/Project Manager, he would rather have an entire workforce of latinos because he never had to say anything to their foremam about the quality of work, safety, or length of time it took to complete. He constantly had to bitch out all white workforces, who most of the time were on drugs, for shitty work, being unsafe, and taking entirely too long. Oh and by the way all these jobs were for the federal government so all those latinos were legal. Most of the latinos rode to work in the same truck, lived 10 deep in a one room apartment and didn't speak any english. Is that reasonable suspicion to stop them and ask people; who are paying taxes, actually taking pride in their work, and just trying to live the "american dream"; for papers just because they're hispanic and do things that society thinks illegal immigrants do?
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Or about the current drug war that has claimed the lives of thousands, she forgot to tell me about that too.
You lost me... What does that even have to do with this? And, where did you get thousands from? Was that something that you picked up from a story in your latest Advocate issue?
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You lost me... What does that even have to do with this? And, where did you get thousands from? Was that something that you picked up from a story in your latest Advocate issue?
Nope, it's a fact if you actually read news related to Mexico. The drug war was brought up to show how little they care this time about illegal immigrants to America when they have to deal with that mess.
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Most of the latinos rode to work in the same truck, lived 10 deep in a one room apartment and didn't speak any english. Is that reasonable suspicion to stop them and ask people; who are paying taxes, actually taking pride in their work, and just trying to live the "american dream"; for papers just because they're hispanic and do things that society thinks illegal immigrants do?
Hell yes it is. IF all of them were legal, then they were still here attempting to turn our country into a third world country. Just by the way they live and by the way they refuse to learn the language, they are NOT living the American dream. You and those like you are very confused if you think these people are wanting to live the American dream. They want to live the Mexican dream by coming to America and getting all they can while they can. I too have friends (from Mexico) who are here legally and work Mexicans on the job. They cannot stand the way the illegals are coming into the country and working for cheap, but because they have some sort of documentation, they cannot discriminate, nor do they have the resources to investigate the validity of those numbers. Do they do the work? Sure. Do they do it better than Americans? Hard to tell, no American works that cheap. Americans MUST have legitimate numbers to work here. If not, they don' t just get deported and come back with a new name.
Selling out your own people for those that do not uphold the spirit and letter of your own country's laws, makes me sick to my stomach.
Until we find a way to shut down the border and successfully identify all of the illegals in this country, we will continue on the road to being a country where those that have nothing vote to take from those who legally work for theirs. Illegals should not be allowed to any benefits the American citizens already pay for. We have enough of our own poor we do not need Mexico's. We have worked as a country to beat poverty and living like third world rats, too hard to let it go backwards now.
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Nope, it's a fact if you actually read news related to Mexico. The drug war was brought up to show how little they care this time about illegal immigrants to America when they have to deal with that mess.
I'm sure your liberal brothers have also told you that all of those involved in the Mexican drug war are killing each other with American guns too?
Why would Mexico EVER deal with illegal immigration? This is a $25 billion dollar a year industry for Mexico.
Mexico in bind as immigrants send less cash home
'Remittances' fall more than 18% in a year as recession stalls construction, manufacturing
Monday, June 15, 2009 2:54 AM
By Alicia A. Caldwell
ASSOCIATED PRESS
<p>Mexicans in the state of Michoacan wait to cash in dollars sent from relatives in the U.S. -- the second-largest legal source of foreign income.</p>
JOE CAVARETTA ASSOCIATED PRESS
Mexicans in the state of Michoacan wait to cash in dollars sent from relatives in the U.S. -- the second-largest legal source of foreign income.
EL PASO, Texas -- With the economy struggling through the longest recession since the Great Depression, the steady flow of dollars that immigrants send back to Mexico also has taken a serious hit.
Mexico's central bank, which tracks money sent by Mexicans living abroad, announced last month that the "remittances" had dropped more than 18 percent in the past year, from $2.2 billion in April 2008 to $1.8 billion this April. It was the biggest such decline on record.
Mexico isn't alone in the loss of remittance revenue, but the U.S. neighbor's economy relies heavily on the billions of dollars sent home annually.
But what about that connection between remittances and the U.S. economy? Does the decline in money sent to Mexico offer any clues about where things stand north of the border?
A few questions and answers about the correlation:
Q: Aren't millions of legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico still living and working in the U.S.?
A: Yes, many millions of Mexican immigrants live in the U.S. But immigrants have been disproportionately affected by the deepening recession because they often work in industries that are among the hardest-hit.
"It really shows you where the weakness in the economy is," said David Besanko, a professor at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management in Evanston, Ill. "Immigrant workers are disproportionately employed in construction and manufacturing."
And data about illegal immigration from the U.S. Border Patrol suggest that fewer people are making the trek north to find work.
Q: Have Mexican immigrants working in the U.S. started to save more of their money or spend it locally rather than sending as much to relatives in Mexico?
A: Like nearly all Americans, immigrant workers who have been able to hold on to their jobs are likely making less money today.
Surveys by groups including the Pew Hispanic Center, a nonpartisan research group in Washington, show that the same number of Latinos living in the U.S. continue to send money to Mexico and other Latin American countries, but the amount of money has dropped in direct correlation with their drop in income.
Q: If immigrants are sending less money home, does that mean the U.S. economy might be in more trouble than initially thought?
A: No. Though immigrant workers have historically sent as much as $25 billion from the U.S. to Mexico annually, that money is just a small fraction of the U.S. gross domestic product of nearly $14 trillion. (Gross domestic product, which measures the value of all goods and services produced in the United States, is the best gauge of the nation's economic health.)
And because that nearly $25 billion was not a direct part of the U.S. economy -- it's sent out of the country, rather than spent on anything sold domestically -- its absence should hardly be missed.
"The importance on the U.S. economy is going to be relatively slight," Besanko said.
Q: Can the drop in remittances to Mexico do damage to that country's economy?
A: Mexico's economy is about one-fourteenth the size of the U.S. economy, so the absence of remittances is likely to deeply affect the Mexican economy. Remittances are Mexico's second-largest legal source of foreign income, behind revenue from the sale of oil.
The greatest impact is likely to be felt in rural communities, from which residents have historically migrated to the U.S. Urban areas have more stable, established local economies that can survive without the flow of foreign money, Besanko said.
Q: Is Mexico the only country in which remittances are down?
A: No. With the recession hitting nearly every corner of the globe, remittances to nearly every country are down. China and India lead the world in remittances annually, with Mexico a close third.
http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2009/06/15/mexican_meltdown.ART_ART_06-15-09_A9_9OE5POC.html?sid=101 (http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2009/06/15/mexican_meltdown.ART_ART_06-15-09_A9_9OE5POC.html?sid=101)
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Nope, it's a fact if you actually read news related to Mexico. The drug war was brought up to show how little they care this time about illegal immigrants to America when they have to deal with that mess.
Well, the government is so damn corrupt in the first place... How many times have their leaders been associated with organized crime in the past 50 years. I mean seriously; I've lost count.
By the way, I'm shedding a tear... NOT!
Calderon: Most Mexico drug war dead are criminals
By IVAN MORENO
The Associated Press
MEXICO CITY — President Felipe Calderon insisted Friday that few innocent civilians have fallen victim to Mexico's bloody drug war, saying nearly all those killed are people tied to cartels wrestling for power.
Speaking during a tourism conference, Calderon said criminals constitute more than 90 percent of drug war's death toll, which stands at nearly 23,000 in just over three years.
Calderon said police officers and soldiers make up less than 5 percent of deaths and bystanders or other innocents even less.
"But even so, my friends, I recognize that it's a real problem," Calderon said of the drug violence.
"We are fighting it with firmness and we are making progress with our goal," he added.
Calderon's comments came two days after a gunbattle in broad daylight killed six people and wounded five on the main boulevard of Acapulco's tourist zone. Among the dead were a mother and her 8-year-old child. A federal police officer and another bystander also were killed. Federal police have arrested 26-year-old Ernesto Antonio Rocha Reyes, an alleged hit man authorities say carried out the attack with a high-powered assault rifle.
...
http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/calderon-most-mexico-drug-468510.html (http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/calderon-most-mexico-drug-468510.html)
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Hell yes it is. IF all of them were legal, then they were still here attempting to turn our country into a third world country.
Ah jeez.
Those damned dirty brown people, even the ones here legally, are trying to make the US over as a 3rd world country by living on the cheap.
What is your position on the 3rd world conditions of many trailer parks around Alabama, inhabited mostly by white folk?
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What is your position on the 3rd world conditions of many trailer parks around Alabama, inhabited mostly by white folk?
They live that way because they are addicted to the meth brought in by the illegal hispanics.
Eradicate the illegals and help save Alabama!!
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What is your position on the 3rd world conditions of many trailer parks around Alabama, inhabited mostly by white folk?
Notice this didn't exist until.....
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This thread is absolutely ridiculous. It's been turned into exactly what the democrats want. A full on war on all the issues but the basic one that caused the law to be written in the first place.
The problem is simple, and it doesn't have shit to do with people's thoughts on the hard working "livin' on the cheap" illegal immigrants. It has to do with the drug war that's now spreading to the streets of Tuscon, Phoenix and other American cities. US Citizens are in danger while this goes on. It's an absolute crisis.
The governor of Arizona has sent FIVE letters asking for assistance from Obama. To be fair, she sent letters to Bush. In the last year and a half the violence has escalated to a point that has become to much for local and state law enforcement.
Directly due to the lack of response from the federal government, Arizona has acted. If it's unconsititutional, it'll get struck down, and they'll be in the same spot. So what's next after that to take care of the immediate concern of the killing in the streets.
I've asked this question several times in this thread and in typical Democrat fashion, it gets ignored to focus on the racism and civil rights aspect. All complaints with absolutly ZERO idea on why, by his own admission, Obama and the federal government have failed the people of Arizona.
Pathetic.
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This thread is absolutely ridiculous. It's been turned into exactly what the democrats want. A full on war on all the issues but the basic one that caused the law to be written in the first place.
The problem is simple, and it doesn't have shit to do with people's thoughts on the hard working "livin' on the cheap" illegal immigrants. It has to do with the drug war that's now spreading to the streets of Tuscon, Phoenix and other American cities. US Citizens are in danger while this goes on. It's an absolute crisis.
The governor of Arizona has sent FIVE letters asking for assistance from Obama. To be fair, she sent letters to Bush. In the last year and a half the violence has escalated to a point that has become to much for local and state law enforcement.
Directly due to the lack of response from the federal government, Arizona has acted. If it's unconsititutional, it'll get struck down, and they'll be in the same spot. So what's next after that to take care of the immediate concern of the killing in the streets.
I've asked this question several times in this thread and in typical Democrat fashion, it gets ignored to focus on the racism and civil rights aspect. All complaints with absolutly ZERO idea on why, by his own admission, Obama and the federal government have failed the people of Arizona.
Pathetic.
The real solution to the problem can be resolved by answering one question: Why are they coming here?
Answer that, and fix it, and the problem will fix itself.
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Ah jeez.
Those damned dirty brown people, even the ones here legally, are trying to make the US over as a 3rd world country by living on the cheap.
What is your position on the 3rd world conditions of many trailer parks around Alabama, inhabited mostly by white folk?
I rolled my eyes at the "trying to make the US over as a 3rd world country".
But, I also think you're idea of getting the ones that are here to work hard and earn an honest living to just sign up to be tax paying citizens is unrealistic too.
Most of them, even honest, hard working ones, don't want to be citizens. They aren't here illegally simply because the US quota for accepting immigrants is too low. They don't want to be documented. They don't want to vote, pay taxes, etc. Most of them want to fly under the radar, make their money, send some of it home, and do their thing without a trace.
That is by far the biggest threat to America...and mostly because it's so subtle and seemingly harmless (after all, they are just hard working people trying to make it through life, how much of a threat can that be?). As we briefly touched on before, it costs us an enormous amount of money. We would make back ten-fold the cost of building a high tech wall within 5 years. Not to the national budget's bottom line, but to the bank accounts of Americans.
My wife is from Harlingen, TX, down in the Rio Grande Valley (about 25 miles from the border of Mexico). We're down there all the time to visit and play cheap golf on nice courses. Here is a car accident scenario that happens every day down there.
You get into a wreck and there is about a 50/50 chance he has no insurance, which means you and your insurance get to pay the bill.
Then the illegal heads to the Valley Baptist hospital to have his mild wounds taken care of free of charge in the emergency room.
And if an amberlamps chaser lawyer is in the parking lot to ask what happened, that same illegal might be suing you for following too close.
So here is this guy. Hard worker, mostly honest, doing no one any harm. But he just cost you and your insurance company thousands of dollars. He just cost the hospital, the doctors, and all of us who pay for health insurance thousands of dollars. Then he wasted the time of a judge, the court clerks, and some legal rep from your insurance company time and money.
So sure, this guy didn't commit a "crime", but breaking the law of living illegally in our country costs all of us money, and tons of it.
I have a friend that works on our warehouse. The IRS said he owed them around $25,000, which is more than he makes in a year. Through a lot of research, it was figured out that his SS# had been sold from somewhere he used to work to 5 different illegals that were now working and earning money on his number in 5 different states. Cumulatively they owed $25,000 in taxes...all put on his number. My boss here happens to have been a lawyer for 30 years here in SA and was able to give our employee thousands of dollars of free legal help. Javy was lucky...what if our boss wasn't that kind of guy? He's just be screwed, and probably in jail.
I have another friend that is a medical malpractice attorney. His firm used to do tons of work down in Laredo on the border. They finally had to stop working there because of the violence. The reason they were there in the first place was because doctors there are constantly fending off suits from the formerly-illegal parents that came here to give birth to their child on US soil. Then there are lawyers down there coaching these people into medical lawsuits of all kinds. Sure, that goes on all over the country. But do we really need to bear the financial burden of scum-bag Americans and scum-bag Mexicans?
Living where I do, I see all sides of it. I see the hard working, honest, helpful Mexicans. I see the criminal Mexicans. But no matter which version they are, honest or criminal, they are here illegally and cost us a shit load of money no matter how you look at it....whether by direct criminal activity, or by the simple act of living life. Either way, we pick up the tab.
You would think Obama's $1.4 trillion budget would have included a big shiny wall.
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This thread is absolutely ridiculous. It's been turned into exactly what the democrats want. A full on war on all the issues but the basic one that caused the law to be written in the first place.
The problem is simple, and it doesn't have shit to do with people's thoughts on the hard working "livin' on the cheap" illegal immigrants. It has to do with the drug war that's now spreading to the streets of Tuscon, Phoenix and other American cities. US Citizens are in danger while this goes on. It's an absolute crisis.
The governor of Arizona has sent FIVE letters asking for assistance from Obama. To be fair, she sent letters to Bush. In the last year and a half the violence has escalated to a point that has become to much for local and state law enforcement.
Directly due to the lack of response from the federal government, Arizona has acted. If it's unconsititutional, it'll get struck down, and they'll be in the same spot. So what's next after that to take care of the immediate concern of the killing in the streets.
I've asked this question several times in this thread and in typical Democrat fashion, it gets ignored to focus on the racism and civil rights aspect. All complaints with absolutly ZERO idea on why, by his own admission, Obama and the federal government have failed the people of Arizona.
Pathetic.
The Governor has the state's law enforcement resources at her disposal. She can do as she sees fit...until such actions run afoul of the Constitution.
Chop, no one is saying that there isn't a problem. How to tackle it will be the big question, naturally. I submit that immigration and drug law reform can serve to relieve the underlying problem.
There is no quick fix short of martial law, however.
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The real solution to the problem can be resolved by answering one question: Why are they coming here?
Answer that, and fix it, and the problem will fix itself.
They're coming here because America is better than Mexico. I know that sounds elitist or condescending to Mexico, but honestly, that's the answer. I'm not even saying what about America is better. But the reason they come is because ______________ is better in American than in Mexico. Every illegal has something to put in that blank.
I'm not sure how you "fix" that problem. I guess Obama is on his way. About 20 years of this leadership and we'll probably look a lot like Mexico and they won't be so eager to come here :sad: (that's mostly a joke....but only mostly, not completely).
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The real solution to the problem can be resolved by answering one question: Why are they coming here?
Answer that, and fix it, and the problem will fix itself.
So why hasn't it be done, AWK? Also, why is it SO unreasonable to want to secure the border and curb this violence in the most pointed way possible when Amercian citizens are in the crossfire?
This isn't so much a long term issue, as it is a current crisis situation. It's happening RIGHT NOW.
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You would think Obama's $1.4 trillion budget would have included a big shiny wall.
That wouldnt fit in the blueprint JA. See the big picture==> http://www.spp.gov/ (http://www.spp.gov/) AKA the North American Union.
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Chop, no one is saying that there isn't a problem. How to tackle it will be the big question, naturally. I submit that immigration and drug law reform can serve to relieve the underlying problem.
Wes, with all due respect. You've suggested law reform. You've talked about immigration reform. You've talked about trailer trash. All these things, and you haven't once mentioned a sense of urgency about the current situation. Only your idealogical responses about the immigration debate as a whole. It's not what I've asked, or pointed out in this thread. Also, I offer that you're not the current president, and the actions to this point consist of absolutely zero. In fact, the only response at all is a statement calling the law misguided.
People are dying. It's a matter of the upmost urgency and this President is failing to recognize that.
When people are hitting the streets and riots are occuring, I'd expect to hear, see and know more about what the federal government is going to do about what is clearly ITS responsibility.
The state has deferred to the federal level more than FIVE times in written letters to the president, as well as in person.
There is NO excuse for this absolute failure. NOW, it's being allowed to happen, because there might actually be a political benefit to the democratic base, and THAT can NOT be ignored as part of this. Don't let yourself be narrow minded enough to NOT believe that democrats know they took a huge hit this past six months over healthcare. To every five educated, and frustrated conservative, republican or frustrated democrat, there's 500 uneducated voters out there that believe nothing more than they'll simply be allowed to stay here, or they'll be getting a check in the mail at some point for some reason. It's all that matters.
This may very well, because of a FAILURE!!!....be the actual savior of the democratic party in November.
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I rolled my eyes at the "trying to make the US over as a 3rd world country".
But, I also think you're idea of getting the ones that are here to work hard and earn an honest living to just sign up to be tax paying citizens is unrealistic too.
Most of them, even honest, hard working ones, don't want to be citizens. They aren't here illegally simply because the US quota for accepting immigrants is too low. They don't want to be documented. They don't want to vote, pay taxes, etc. Most of them want to fly under the radar, make their money, send some of it home, and do their thing without a trace.
That is by far the biggest threat to America...and mostly because it's so subtle and seemingly harmless (after all, they are just hard working people trying to make it through life, how much of a threat can that be?). As we briefly touched on before, it costs us an enormous amount of money. We would make back ten-fold the cost of building a high tech wall within 5 years. Not to the national budget's bottom line, but to the bank accounts of Americans.
My wife is from Harlingen, TX, down in the Rio Grande Valley (about 25 miles from the border of Mexico). We're down there all the time to visit and play cheap golf on nice courses. Here is a car accident scenario that happens every day down there.
You get into a wreck and there is about a 50/50 chance he has no insurance, which means you and your insurance get to pay the bill.
Then the illegal heads to the Valley Baptist hospital to have his mild wounds taken care of free of charge in the emergency room.
And if an amberlamps chaser lawyer is in the parking lot to ask what happened, that same illegal might be suing you for following too close.
So here is this guy. Hard worker, mostly honest, doing no one any harm. But he just cost you and your insurance company thousands of dollars. He just cost the hospital, the doctors, and all of us who pay for health insurance thousands of dollars. Then he wasted the time of a judge, the court clerks, and some legal rep from your insurance company time and money.
So sure, this guy didn't commit a "crime", but breaking the law of living illegally in our country costs all of us money, and tons of it.
I have a friend that works on our warehouse. The IRS said he owed them around $25,000, which is more than he makes in a year. Through a lot of research, it was figured out that his SS# had been sold from somewhere he used to work to 5 different illegals that were now working and earning money on his number in 5 different states. Cumulatively they owed $25,000 in taxes...all put on his number. My boss here happens to have been a lawyer for 30 years here in SA and was able to give our employee thousands of dollars of free legal help. Javy was lucky...what if our boss wasn't that kind of guy? He's just be screwed, and probably in jail.
I have another friend that is a medical malpractice attorney. His firm used to do tons of work down in Laredo on the border. They finally had to stop working there because of the violence. The reason they were there in the first place was because doctors there are constantly fending off suits from the formerly-illegal parents that came here to give birth to their child on US soil. Then there are lawyers down there coaching these people into medical lawsuits of all kinds. Sure, that goes on all over the country. But do we really need to bear the financial burden of scum-bag Americans and scum-bag Mexicans?
Living where I do, I see all sides of it. I see the hard working, honest, helpful Mexicans. I see the criminal Mexicans. But no matter which version they are, honest or criminal, they are here illegally and cost us a shit load of money no matter how you look at it....whether by direct criminal activity, or by the simple act of living life. Either way, we pick up the tab.
You would think Obama's $1.4 trillion budget would have included a big shiny wall.
That's a lot of irrefutable anecdotal evidence.
I would submit that a reasonable person would seek legal status if they endeavored to live a life in the states free of worry from deportation upon the slightest infraction.
Perhaps rather than focusing on citizenship we ought to be focusing our efforts to document these folks under an expanded work-visa program.
I'm just throwing out ideas because the "fuck them 3rd world denizens and their poverty" attitude isn't working...clearly.
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Chop, I know that the current drug related situation is bad, but I think you may be overstating it's portion of the problem a little. Aren't the vast majority of those being killed here and in Mexico actually part of the cartel? I don't recall seeing major US cities dealing with general riots and murders in the streets. I could be completely wrong, I just haven't seen it too much.
That isn't to say your point isn't valid, I'm just saying I still think that illegals and immigration control in the big picture is still the main problem, and is a much longer and cumulative problem.
I posted this earlier, but read it again if you didn't the first time. Nearly everything in the article below is a long term issue, not really related to the "today" drug issues. The stats in the article, to me at least, are far more alarming than any cross fire, drug dealer fighting that is going on (I don't mean it's not a big deal, I just mean by comparison of the magnitude and numbers).
Illegal immigrants cause many problems for The United States. Sometimes referred to as Illegal Aliens, these people have entered the United States via illegal methods. The FBI recently
issued a set of statistics regarding crimes committed by illegal immigrants in the United States. The numbers are alarming.
In Los Angeles, over 95% of arrest warrants issued for the crime of murder are for illegal aliens. At least 83% of arrest warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens. The number climbs to 86% for Albuquerque. The most wanted lists for each of these cities is comprised of at least 75% illegal aliens.
The problem of prison overcrowding in California has been in the media many times over the past few months. Governor Schwarzenegger has attempted to gain relief from the overcrowding problem by shipping inmates to facilities in other states. Nearly 25% of the California prison population is comprised of illegal aliens. In Arizona, illegal aliens make up over 40% of the prison population and in New Mexico, the number is nearly 50%.
Illegal aliens account for nearly 30% of prison populations nationwide. This includes both state and federal prisons. The cost to house these illegal aliens is more than $1.6 billion dollars each year.
Statistics from 2005 indicate that over 75% of automobile thefts that occurred in Arizona, Nevada, California, Texas, and New Mexico were either stolen by illegal aliens or used to transport illegal aliens. Almost half of the drivers stopped in California for traffic violations have no driver's license, insurance, or registration. 92% of those are illegal aliens. In Arizona, 63% of those stopped have no license, registration or insurance and 97% of those people are illegal aliens. New Mexico's percentages are 66% stopped with no license, insurance and registration and 98% of those are illegal aliens.
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I would submit that a reasonable person would seek legal status if they endeavored to live a life in the states free of worry from deportation upon the slightest infraction.
They could do that now! They keep fucking it up themselves by fucking with the system. It's the fault of the illegal immigrant, not me, you or the average Arizonian.
Perhaps rather than focusing on citizenship we ought to be focusing our efforts to document these folks under an expanded work-visa program.
No problem with this once the border is secure and everyone is documented appropriately. Until the border is secure, it's a waste of time and money.
I'm just throwing out ideas because the "fuck them 3rd world denizens and their poverty" attitude isn't working...clearly.
Yeah, I guess when there's killing and rioting in the streets by these "3rd world denizens", Americans start to get a little frustrated.
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Chop, I know that the current drug related situation is bad, but I think you may be overstating it's portion of the problem a little. Aren't the vast majority of those being killed here and in Mexico actually part of the cartel? I don't recall seeing major US cities dealing with general riots and murders in the streets. I could be completely wrong, I just haven't seen it too much.
That isn't to say your point isn't valid, I'm just saying I still think that illegals and immigration control in the big picture is still the main problem, and is a much longer and cumulative problem.
I posted this earlier, but read it again if you didn't the first time. Nearly everything in the article below is a long term issue, not really related to the "today" drug issues. The stats in the article, to me at least, are far more alarming than any cross fire, drug dealer fighting that is going on (I don't mean it's not a big deal, I just mean by comparison of the magnitude and numbers).
Illegal immigrants cause many problems for The United States. Sometimes referred to as Illegal Aliens, these people have entered the United States via illegal methods. The FBI recently
issued a set of statistics regarding crimes committed by illegal immigrants in the United States. The numbers are alarming.
In Los Angeles, over 95% of arrest warrants issued for the crime of murder are for illegal aliens. At least 83% of arrest warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens. The number climbs to 86% for Albuquerque. The most wanted lists for each of these cities is comprised of at least 75% illegal aliens.
The problem of prison overcrowding in California has been in the media many times over the past few months. Governor Schwarzenegger has attempted to gain relief from the overcrowding problem by shipping inmates to facilities in other states. Nearly 25% of the California prison population is comprised of illegal aliens. In Arizona, illegal aliens make up over 40% of the prison population and in New Mexico, the number is nearly 50%.
Illegal aliens account for nearly 30% of prison populations nationwide. This includes both state and federal prisons. The cost to house these illegal aliens is more than $1.6 billion dollars each year.
Statistics from 2005 indicate that over 75% of automobile thefts that occurred in Arizona, Nevada, California, Texas, and New Mexico were either stolen by illegal aliens or used to transport illegal aliens. Almost half of the drivers stopped in California for traffic violations have no driver's license, insurance, or registration. 92% of those are illegal aliens. In Arizona, 63% of those stopped have no license, registration or insurance and 97% of those people are illegal aliens. New Mexico's percentages are 66% stopped with no license, insurance and registration and 98% of those are illegal aliens.
The point I'm making stands I believe. I saw your post and saw it for the good points it made. Agreed.
However, the problem is, is that there are drive bys, murders and intentional traffic accidents happening in Phoenix and other Arizona cities. While you may also be correct that these drug wars are happening between cartels, the fact remains that it is in FACT spreading to US Soil, and because the border is not secure, Americans are in immediate danger. The kind of danger that six months to a year of debate won't fix.
I find it interesting that I'm one of the few that sees the situation for the crisis it is.
Just my opinion.
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They could do that now! They keep fucking it up themselves by fucking with the system. It's the fault of the illegal immigrant, not me, you or the average Arizonian.
The problem is the illogically low quota number. There is a finite number of spots available every year and when they're taken, that's it. So, why not increase the quota number in order to document the immigrants properly?
No problem with this once the border is secure and everyone is documented appropriately. Until the border is secure, it's a waste of time and money.
I don't think you'll see a line of demarcation between "secure border" and logical immigration policy, so why not work on both in tandem?
I'm just throwing out ideas because the "fuck them 3rd world denizens and their poverty" attitude isn't working...clearly.
Yeah, I guess when there's killing and rioting in the streets by these "3rd world denizens", Americans start to get a little frustrated.
I guess it seems to me that you're exaggerating the rioting and killing in the streets.
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That's a lot of irrefutable anecdotal evidence.
I would submit that a reasonable person would seek legal status if they endeavored to live a life in the states free of worry from deportation upon the slightest infraction.
Perhaps rather than focusing on citizenship we ought to be focusing our efforts to document these folks under an expanded work-visa program.
I'm just throwing out ideas because the "phuk them 3rd world denizens and their poverty" attitude isn't working...clearly.
I know, the stories I just threw in because they were relevant to the discussion, not so much as proof of "see, this is what really goes on".
I guess we have no way of knowing....but I suspect there are far fewer "reasonable" people than you suspect.
The main problem with that is that as of now, there is no fear of deportation really. It may be in the back of their mind, but it's so relatively rare that they probably don't give it much thought, and hence would see no reason to jump at the opportunity to sign up.
In 2008 there were only 350,000 people deported out of anywhere from 12 to 20 million. That's anywhere from less than 3% to around 1.75%. I think your idea would have a much better chance if current illegals faced at least a 25% chance of being sent home.
Equate it to any other crime. If there was only a 3% chance you get caught robbing a bank, there wouldn't be any banks still standing. If there was a 2% chance of being caught stealing a car, I'd be driving an Audi S8 right now. Currently, I just don't think the threat of deportation is much of a deterrent.
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The problem is the illogically low quota number. There is a finite number of spots available every year and when they're taken, that's it. So, why not increase the quota number in order to document the immigrants properly?
I'm sorry, Wes, but we can't afford the people that are here now. We can't identify a huge portion of the ones already here. How about we secure the border, get more Americans (this means ALL documented able bodied working people) back to work, and then identify how many more we can afford when it's appropriate. I'm not saying I disagree with what you want, I'm just saying you're suggesting it at the worst possible time in our history.
I don't think you'll see a line of demarcation between "secure border" and logical immigration policy, so why not work on both in tandem?
Because if the border is not secure, you'll never have a handle on the numbers and facts necessary to intelligently work on the policies. We could start by the President instituting the immigration laws that already exist. That would be a good place to start.
I guess it seems to me that you're exaggerating the rioting and killing in the streets.
Belive what you want, but if you don't think there is killing going on in Arizona, then you're just not paying attention. Even if it WAS just ONE rancher being murdered because of a drug war that's getting completely out of hand, and the state had deferred to the federal government to do something about an increasing threat, and it had been ignored again and again, it would be a crisis situation.
Can you imagine for just a second, the absolute meltdown if George W. had ignored this problem on the border and the increased violence???
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The problem is the illogically low quota number. There is a finite number of spots available every year and when they're taken, that's it. So, why not increase the quota number in order to document the immigrants properly?
After giving this a little thought, I don't think i would like the quota increased. I like the idea of a "slow bleed" into society. For most immigrants, it takes considerable time to assimilate to the culture. It takes time to learn the language, get work, establish credit, rent an apartment, but a car, have kids, etc.
I don't like the idea of a huge influx every year of people that are no longer expected to assimilate to American culture. They aren't expected to have to speak English in order function here. I think one reason people used to immigrate here and become "American" was because they were forced to do so. By not doing it, they isolated themselves and stymied their growth.
Also, by slowly adding immigrants which typically come in towards the bottom of the economic chain, it gives time for those who came before them to move up and out of the bottom, towards the middle. If we let in too many at one time, that bottom group will swell, in which case the rest of us will have to bear even more burden. Not to mention, it would make moving up more difficult for those coming in.
And lastly, I feel that the immigrants that go the correct rout are typically going to be more interested in working hard, moving up, and taking advantage of the opportunity America provides for them. Those who are not interested in the legal rout are probably more interested in the services American can provide for them, not the opportunity it can provide.
I think the smaller quota weeds out a lot of the leaches. (well, could weed them out if we actually put a stop to illegal immigration).
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I have two little illegal Mexican girls (not sure of the exact age but they swore they were both "diecinueve") They live in the garage out back and fix me hot tamales any time I want them.
I'm not giving them back.
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I have two little illegal Mexican girls (not sure of the exact age but they swore they were both "diecinueve") They live in the garage out back and fix me hot tamales any time I want them.
I'm not giving them back.
My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Mexico,—to their own native land. But a moment’s reflection would convince me that whatever of high hope (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible.
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My first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Mexico,—to their own native land. But a moment’s reflection would convince me that whatever of high hope (as I think there is) there may be in this, in the long run, its sudden execution is impossible.
Lincoln?
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Lincoln?
They're alright, but I prefer foreign made.
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They're alright, but I prefer foreign made.
Me too, specifically German made.
This is how you roll?
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/01/ebay-Lincoln-Town-Car.jpg)
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Just a thought... There's an awful lot of pontificating in here on both sides of the debate. Has anyone really read the law to know what's actually in it? I heard a fairly decent review of it today, and I can't see anything wrong with it. It even goes as far as discouraging racial profiling. What's the deal?
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Me too, specifically German made.
This is how you roll?
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/01/ebay-Lincoln-Town-Car.jpg)
I'm not sure what is more attractive. The beauty on the hood or the white wall on the tire. Either way, Ich habe holz!!
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They are illegal invaders and should be shot as soon as they step foot on US soil. Yes. All of them. It won't take long for them to understand that the invasion is over. If they are here illegally and commit a crime, immediate exportation. Since they will be shot when trying to come back, that will take care of the multiple re-entry issue. Mexico is not as forgiving as we are when illegals enter their country. Their jails and prisons are not nearly as nice as ours and their people could give a shit less as to how many and which Americans are in their government hotels.
As harsh as it seems, we need to be vigilant and a heartless about this to an extent. We are being invaded and all the libs can see are helpless victims, and more votes.
I am all about helping those in need. But we need to help our own before we can take in refugees that never leave from the south.
I am all for you sympathizers doing what was suggested before, take in these illegal and pay for them yourselves. Be their sponsors. If they commit a crime, be responsible for it. Put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is and leave the rest of us alone.
And if states like Arizona want to completely close their borders with force against illegal invaders, then they have that right. And that responsibility to their residents.
As for deportation and where they came from, 99% came here through Mexico. We just send them back to their last stop. After that, Mexico can deal with them since they did not stop them from coming into their country to begin with. This border crossing thing is beginning to look like the lottery. As soon as they get here, they win.
The world IS black and white sometimes. This is one of those times.
This is the most asinine disposition on immigration I've ever read in my life. So you're saying we should load up our guns and shoot illegal immigrants because we can't control our own border? How about pointing that gun at those truly responsible for this mess - the government (republican and democrat) and the business owners taking advantage of a people who are desperate to improve their lives.
You ever think about what they're coming here to do? Live in run down trailer parks with 10 per trailer? Work grueling jobs with small pay in constant fear that they could be arrested for being here illegally? Attempt to live some kind of life of normalcy while dealing with the consistent perception that they're bad people here ruining the land they so badly want to be part of?
Shoot them. One of the most heartless statements I've ever heard, you fucking neanderthal. I've dealt with a good number of these families over the past three years, and let me tell you something - they're wonderful people. Absolutely wonderful. They have it rough...yeah. The males get into some trouble, but it's no different than the trouble white boys are getting into. But they are all mostly generous, compassionate people who attend church as much as you or I do. In fact, as an aggregate, I bet they have a higher percentage of church goers (or those practicing some form of standardized morality) than legal Americans.
The hardcore drug dealers causing serious issues are actually in the minority. The majority of hispanic immigrants are here because they want the best for their children. They have a great deal of wholesome customs that have been part of their culture for generations. They want to see their children succeed and not be forced into tiring jobs that have no future. Out of all of my low level students, the hispanics are the ones who do their homework. It's the white and black kids that give me the most nuissance-like problems. I don't have to worry about the hispanics at all - they're consistently good kids who just struggle with the English language. Which, by the way, they are trying to learn the best way they can - with no help at home - with surrounding white kids giving them a sneer instead of showing compassion - with teachers acting the same way like ignorant white people from the 1960s scared of those nasty "coloreds" sharing a classroom with them.
I wish we could shoot people like you for having such an intolerable attitude. I bet that would make me feel better too to just eliminate those who are seemingly holding back our country from resembling any sort of progression.
If you haven't gotten it yet, go fuck yourself. Asshole.
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Just a thought... There's an awful lot of pontificating in here on both sides of the debate. Has anyone really read the law to know what's actually in it? I heard a fairly decent review of it today, and I can't see anything wrong with it. It even goes as far as discouraging racial profiling. What's the deal?
Once again let me ask a logical "common sense" question:
How would one go about finding ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants if you don't "profile" the Mexican looking people? I'm betting you could ask millions of white people and find not one illegal Mexican immigrant.
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This is the most asinine disposition on immigration I've ever read in my life. So you're saying we should load up our guns and shoot illegal immigrants because we can't control our own border? How about pointing that gun at those truly responsible for this mess - the government (republican and democrat) and the business owners taking advantage of a people who are desperate to improve their lives.
You ever think about what they're coming here to do? Live in run down trailer parks with 10 per trailer? Work grueling jobs with small pay in constant fear that they could be arrested for being here illegally? Attempt to live some kind of life of normalcy while dealing with the consistent perception that they're bad people here ruining the land they so badly want to be part of?
Shoot them. One of the most heartless statements I've ever heard, you fucking neanderthal. I've dealt with a good number of these families over the past three years, and let me tell you something - they're wonderful people. Absolutely wonderful. They have it rough...yeah. The males get into some trouble, but it's no different than the trouble white boys are getting into. But they are all mostly generous, compassionate people who attend church as much as you or I do. In fact, as an aggregate, I bet they have a higher percentage of church goers (or those practicing some form of standardized morality) than legal Americans.
The hardcore drug dealers causing serious issues are actually in the minority. The majority of hispanic immigrants are here because they want the best for their children. They have a great deal of wholesome customs that have been part of their culture for generations. They want to see their children succeed and not be forced into tiring jobs that have no future. Out of all of my low level students, the hispanics are the ones who do their homework. It's the white and black kids that give me the most nuissance-like problems. I don't have to worry about the hispanics at all - they're consistently good kids who just struggle with the English language. Which, by the way, they are trying to learn the best way they can - with no help at home - with surrounding white kids giving them a sneer instead of showing compassion - with teachers acting the same way like ignorant white people from the 1960s scared of those nasty "coloreds" sharing a classroom with them.
I wish we could shoot people like you for having such an intolerable attitude. I bet that would make me feel better too to just eliminate those who are seemingly holding back our country from resembling any sort of progression.
If you haven't gotten it yet, go fuck yourself. Asshole.
:thumsup: :thumsup: :thumsup: :thumsup: :thumsup:
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Once again let me ask a logical "common sense" question:
How would one go about finding ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants if you don't "profile" the Mexican looking people? I'm betting you could ask millions of white people and find not one illegal Mexican immigrant.
Which is exactly why the bill is unconstitutional on its face.
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I post this, not as a satirical tool to make light of some of your arguments, but rather because this is my only source for news and opinions, and I can't process what's being said in my own, so I'll just let the Daily Show talk for me. :)
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-26-2010/law---border (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-26-2010/law---border)
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Which is exactly why the bill is unconstitutional on its face.
Actually it is unconstitutional to be an ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT
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I post this, not as a satirical tool to make light of some of your arguments, but rather because this is my only source for news and opinions, and I can't process what's being said in my own, so I'll just let the Daily Show talk for me. :)
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-26-2010/law---border (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-26-2010/law---border)
I stopped at Daily Show. John Stewart? Seriously? ...and it's "your only source for news and opinions"???? Ouch.
The bottom line is, when it comes to the Arizona law, the part that gets left out of EVERY one of racist congering jack asses, is the fact that a police officer MUST have a lawful reason to pull you over NOT based on gender, color or perceived nationality. That part just doesn't make it past the cutting room floor on most channels.
Let me stress again, if it's found unconstitutional, then fine, I will trust in the judges ruling in the matter. I'm even okay with that. What I WON'T be okay with, is being classified as a racist because I happen to agree with the premise on which the law was drafted. I also WON'T be okay if Obama continues his self admitted failure to act in the very short term.
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I stopped at Daily Show. John Stewart? Seriously? ...and it's "your only source for news and opinions"???? Ouch.
(http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad87/Zhyd/DoubleFacepalmRickerPicard.jpg)
Double Satire Fail
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(http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/ad87/Zhyd/DoubleFacepalmRickerPicard.jpg)
Double Satire Fail
I knew it was in sarcasm. I guess I'll pull out the emoticon from here on out. Besides, I only roll with The Colbert Report for all my can't miss information.
Eh hem.... :sarcasm:
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I knew it was in sarcasm. I guess I'll pull out the emoticon from here on out. Besides, I only roll with The Colbert Report for all my can't miss information.
Eh hem.... :sarcasm:
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg140/theflooper/misc/stooges_face_palm.jpg)
I stand corrected. The fail is on me.
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As I think more about the topic, I got to ask...
Who here thinks it's fair to call people racist, simply because the opposition to paying for these people that are here illegally when it comes to services, healthcare and other burdens taken out of my income?
That's basically what's happening here. Maybe not to an extreme here (on TigersX), but it certainly is the mainstream media intent to portrait the opposition as such.
Townhall made a great response to an idiotic post. It was great. I agreed with pretty much all of it. It still doesn't change the fact that they're not here legally, and it's getting out of control.
Would it have been better, if Bob Barker had dropped the "help control the pet population", and replaced it with "help control the illegal population?" I say that as a ridiculous point, but the fact is, we're not controling the population where it should be controlled and it's wrecking a state in Arizona.
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Is it against the rules to use SNL as a source of my information in addition to Daily Show, Colbert, South Park, and Oprah?
:30
http://www.hulu.com/watch/144712/saturday-night-live-update-favorites-apr-24-2010#s-p1-sr-i3 (http://www.hulu.com/watch/144712/saturday-night-live-update-favorites-apr-24-2010#s-p1-sr-i3)
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Is it against the rules to use SNL as a source of my information in addition to Daily Show, Colbert, South Park, and Oprah?
:30
http://www.hulu.com/watch/144712/saturday-night-live-update-favorites-apr-24-2010#s-p1-sr-i3 (http://www.hulu.com/watch/144712/saturday-night-live-update-favorites-apr-24-2010#s-p1-sr-i3)
:hulk:
juskeeding.....
btw...the Larry King thing was funny!
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Is it against the rules to use SNL as a source of my information in addition to Daily Show, Colbert, South Park, and Oprah?
:30
http://www.hulu.com/watch/144712/saturday-night-live-update-favorites-apr-24-2010#s-p1-sr-i3 (http://www.hulu.com/watch/144712/saturday-night-live-update-favorites-apr-24-2010#s-p1-sr-i3)
I heard SNL really sucks ass, but I had no idea how bad it was until you posted that link. Nazi jokes? That's seriously the best they could come up with?
How the fuck does that show still exist?
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I heard SNL really sucks ass, but I had no idea how bad it was until you posted that link. Nazi jokes? That's seriously the best they could come up with?
How the fuck does that show still exist?
Andy Samburg (sp?) keeps it alive with the digital shorts. Most of those are funny. The one this weekend was just fucking creepy.
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Here is said "cherry battle" digital short from this past weekend with the huge bitch from Precious....
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/snl-cherry-battle-may-be-weirdest-digital-short-ever/ (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/snl-cherry-battle-may-be-weirdest-digital-short-ever/)
Not sure it unseats "pickle surprise" as the ultimate WTF video, but it's highly ranked for sure. :silence:
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Which is exactly why the bill is unconstitutional on its face.
Actually- no its not. I respect AWK and he knows more about law than I do as a whole, but there are certain circumstances where this bill is not unconstitutional. In this case the Arizona bill merely reinforces existing federal immigration laws and creates no new immigration crimes.
"The bill adheres to the doctrine of concurrent enforcement – the legal principle that preemption will not be found where a state law prohibits conduct that is already prohibited under federal law"
As GarMan said, its actually quite a tame bill as compared to the bad press it has received.
But whats strange to me here is that many on here (and Obama) did not pull out the "unconstitutional card" on the VERY unconstitutional HC Bill.
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But whats strange to me here is that many on here (and Obama) did not pull out the "unconstitutional card" on the VERY unconstitutional HC Bill.
Commerce clause.. It sucks, but that's how Congress has authority to pass something like the HC Bill. They can create laws/or programs for anything affecting interstate commerce. It's a very broad power.
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I've dealt with a good number of these families over the past three years, and let me tell you something - they're wonderful people. Absolutely wonderful. They have it rough...yeah. The males get into some trouble, but it's no different than the trouble white boys are getting into. But they are all mostly generous, compassionate people who attend church as much as you or I do. In fact, as an aggregate, I bet they have a higher percentage of church goers (or those practicing some form of standardized morality) than legal Americans.
Giving the country away one illegal family at a time. Thank you for deciding where my extra money should go .
I wish we could shoot people like you for having such an intolerable attitude. I bet that would make me feel better too to just eliminate those who are seemingly holding back our country from resembling any sort of progression.
Give it your best shot. I'm ready. Are you?
If you haven't gotten it yet, go fuck yourself. Asshole.
I don't really need to perform that selfish act with people like you willing to do it for me. Thanks for the love.
That's the difference. There are many more just like me that are afraid to say anything because of the self-righteous little pricks like you. But the fact remains that our country is being invaded by people who could care less what happens to it 20 -30 years down the road. Because by then, we will all be no better than Mexico, and the invaders would have won. I'm glad you are pissed. Maybe when your position on the subject causes you considerable discomfort, you will look back on this and think we should have taken a tougher stance. Until then, by all means, adopt an illegal family for your own so my tax dollars do not have to support them.
Arizona is doing what it takes to make their state safer. I applaud them. To those who oppose, may you be lucky enough to escape the negative issues of illegal immigration. It seems the good folks of Arizona have not been so lucky.
BTW. It is quite scary when even I am too controversial for the X. It may just be the older I get, the more I want you little piss-ants off my lawn.
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Giving the country away one illegal family at a time. Thank you for deciding where my extra money should go .
Give it your best shot. I'm ready. Are you?
I don't really need to perform that selfish act with people like you willing to do it for me. Thanks for the love.
That's the difference. There are many more just like me that are afraid to say anything because of the self-righteous little pricks like you. But the fact remains that our country is being invaded by people who could care less what happens to it 20 -30 years down the road. Because by then, we will all be no better than Mexico, and the invaders would have won. I'm glad you are pissed. Maybe when your position on the subject causes you considerable discomfort, you will look back on this and think we should have taken a tougher stance. Until then, by all means, adopt an illegal family for your own so my tax dollars do not have to support them.
Arizona is doing what it takes to make their state safer. I applaud them. To those who oppose, may you be lucky enough to escape the negative issues of illegal immigration. It seems the good folks of Arizona have not been so lucky.
BTW. It is quite scary when even I am too controversial for the X. It may just be the older I get, the more I want you little piss-ants off my lawn.
Well said CCT. As JA also eluded to - most of them don't want to be legal. Ive talked to many, MANY foreigners I work with on temp visas/H1B's that have personally told me they don't want to be citizens - Mexicans, Indians, Chinese - you name it. They will tell you point blank that they are here to work and send the money back home because their home country doesnt provide much opportunity. Geez - sounds like their problem doesnt it? Maybe these other counries should try this capitalism thing. If what they are telling me is true , then wes, the raising of the limit wouldnt do a damn thing. Do the minorities in this country - illegal or not - realize that if this welfare type system in its form today and where its headed, had been in place for the last century instead of just recently - there would be no opportunities them NOW? They are trying to destroy the very system that made this country rich and prosperous. I say the same thing about Michael Moore and his crap - if he lived in a country that had the ideal form of govt he desires, he wouldnt have been able to make the millions that he has. He is against the very system that made him rich. I guess once your rich though, its ok. He's already made his money. Right - I get it.
THS - I usually agree with you on most things but your rant was a little over the top for you. Why do people on this board hate white men so much? That shit gets old. Bad whitey bad whitey. Good gosh - let it go. Has your recent college experience indoctrinated you young fuckers THAT much?
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Yes, I do realize that. Thus my suggestion that we do what we can to document/legitimize those without history of violent crime and begin to make them less of an illegal burden and more of a legal contributing force.
I understand this, and I do not have the numbers, but I would think (opinion without referential basis alert!!!) that the vast majority do not have false SS#s.
Your thinking would be wrong. It's something I have to deal with all the time in my business. You would be shocked at the number of times people try to pass off SSNs that belong to others. And we only catch the ones that use fake numbers that have already been entered in our system. It was so bad that we had to write an entire program to root them out and generate a secondary ID number.
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The problem is the illogically low quota number. There is a finite number of spots available every year and when they're taken, that's it. So, why not increase the quota number in order to document the immigrants properly?
I don't think you'll see a line of demarcation between "secure border" and logical immigration policy, so why not work on both in tandem?
I guess it seems to me that you're exaggerating the rioting and killing in the streets.
You know what's a good quota number? ZE-FUCKING-RO. Until this country can take care of its own problems we don't need anybody else's. We're not getting the brightest and most industrious as we once did when the European immigration was at its peak and scientists, engineers, doctors and scholars were coming. Or when Russia collapsed and their similar groups flocked here. No, what we get -- particularly with the illegals -- is the bottom of the barrel scum. Murderers, thieves, con artists, drug dealers, hoodlums, thugs...
We don't need a quota, we need to shut it down.
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After giving this a little thought, I don't think i would like the quota increased. I like the idea of a "slow bleed" into society. For most immigrants, it takes considerable time to assimilate to the culture. It takes time to learn the language, get work, establish credit, rent an apartment, but a car, have kids, etc.
AND THEREIN LIES THE FUCKING PROBLEM...
They aren't assimilating. They aren't learning the culture. They aren't learning the language. They're not getting credit or paying taxes. They're not becoming members of American society. Instead they -- with the support of our useless government and pandering fucks like Lowes -- are forcing their (substandard or they wouldn't be here) culture on US.
I have no problem at all with people who come to this country to be a part of it. I have a major issue with anybody -- whether they be Mexican, Muslim, Swedish, French, Norwegian or Chinese -- who comes here and expects everyone else to adapt. Fuck that.
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Your thinking would be wrong. It's something I have to deal with all the time in my business. You would be shocked at the number of times people try to pass off SSNs that belong to others. And we only catch the ones that use fake numbers that have already been entered in our system. It was so bad that we had to write an entire program to root them out and generate a secondary ID number.
I don't think the average American is educated enough on this subject to know what is happening. As I get older, I have friends who have started and maintained successful businesses. This is a huge problem for them. One in which the government refuses to step in and help. They stipulate that the businesses MUST hire legals, but give them no tools to check for sure. Some can only go with the number they get and send their part of the taxes to that number. If in the end it is a bogus number, they have at least done their part. They encourage their employees to pay taxes (LOL) but if I served food to someone for a living and could get away without paying taxes because I knew I was illegal anyway, why would I pay. A SSN number tied to an identification card with a picture should be mandatory and accessible by employers at time of application. This way the employers could see if the picture matches the number. These types of ideas would preclude the urge for many of us to shoot the invaders on sight. When your own government does not care, it builds extreme frustration on the REAL citizens' part.
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You know what's a good quota number? ZE-phukING-RO. Until this country can take care of its own problems we don't need anybody else's. We're not getting the brightest and most industrious as we once did when the European immigration was at its peak and scientists, engineers, doctors and scholars were coming. Or when Russia collapsed and their similar groups flocked here. No, what we get -- particularly with the illegals -- is the bottom of the barrel scum. Murderers, thieves, con artists, drug dealers, hoodlums, thugs...
We don't need a quota, we need to shut it down.
Especially since MOST of them don't want to be permanent citizens. They just want the fruits without paying the dues.
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You know what's a good quota number? ZE-FUCKING-RO. Until this country can take care of its own problems we don't need anybody else's. We're not getting the brightest and most industrious as we once did when the European immigration was at its peak and scientists, engineers, doctors and scholars were coming. Or when Russia collapsed and their similar groups flocked here. No, what we get -- particularly with the illegals -- is the bottom of the barrel scum. Murderers, thieves, con artists, drug dealers, hoodlums, thugs...
We don't need a quota, we need to shut it down.
First, that is absolutely false. I would love for you provide some statistics or a link that shows all immigrants, particularly illegals, are all murderers, thieves, etc...
Second, I find it absolutely hilarious how it is perfectly fine to you when white European immigrants that just happen to be scientists, engineers, and doctors come over, but not the day workers.
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
Where does it say give me your wealthy, educated, and rich? Oh wait, nevermind, scratch that, that doesn't apply to this situation......
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AWK's response is a perfect example of bleeding heart liberalism.
1. Ignore the direct impact of the total issue of immigration on the country and the financial ruin it's causing.
2. Attack those that oppose the current state of immigration, not immigration itself in an attempt to demonize.
This is exactly why politics in general are a total failure.
It's Auburn vs. Alabama, Ohio State vs. Michigan...Yale vs. Harvard. It's a black and white battle with one side only looking for and searching out something to attack the other, rather than see the common ground to work from.
You're either for or against. You're either compassionate, or a racist bigot against everything this country was founded.
Fuck that. Why bother debating at all?
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Second, I find it absolutely hilarious how it is perfectly fine to you when white European immigrants that just happen to be scientists, engineers, and doctors come over, but not the day workers.
You mock Kaos's response by uttering a completely ridiculous one in return? How's that going to work for you? Okay, so give me an example of where litertally MILLIONS of undocumented white European immigrants are hopping the border and sending money home to their home country while draining the one they're in dry? That was said out of emotioin, and was a poor poor response.
Where does it say give me your wealthy, educated, and rich? Oh wait, nevermind, scratch that, that doesn't apply to this situation......
Can we look for a few other founding father era documents that talk about legally being a citizen, or at minimum the basic responsibility of paying taxes? I'm sure there's something there also. Might not be found on the Statue of Liberty.....but...
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I've gathering data and researching the demographics here to determine exactly what the deciding factors are that separates the angry white men from the elitist. There is a trend, but I'll need a few more days of research before I disclose my findings.
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First, that is absolutely false. I would love for you provide some statistics or a link that shows all immigrants, particularly illegals, are all murderers, thieves, etc...
Second, I find it absolutely hilarious how it is perfectly fine to you when white European immigrants that just happen to be scientists, engineers, and doctors come over, but not the day workers.
Where does it say give me your wealthy, educated, and rich? Oh wait, nevermind, scratch that, that doesn't apply to this situation......
Things change.
I think the statistics on crime in the Southwest, as already posted by others, clearly support the contention that illegal aliens as a whole are responsible for a disproportionate percentage of crimes committed. Would you like for me to point you to the information already posted in this thread or can you find it yourself?
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First, that is absolutely false. I would love for you provide some statistics or a link that shows all immigrants, particularly illegals, are all murderers, thieves, etc...
Second, I find it absolutely hilarious how it is perfectly fine to you when white European immigrants that just happen to be scientists, engineers, and doctors come over, but not the day workers.
Where does it say give me your wealthy, educated, and rich? Oh wait, nevermind, scratch that, that doesn't apply to this situation......
Let alone the obvious fact that if your quota is "ZE-FUCKING-RO", then 100% of immigrants will be illegal. So either he's a complete idiot, or just trying to argue to argue. Can't ever tell with him.
AWK's response is a perfect example of bleeding heart liberalism.
1. Ignore the direct impact of the total issue of immigration on the country and the financial ruin it's causing.
2. Attack those that oppose the current state of immigration, not immigration itself in an attempt to demonize.
This is exactly why politics in general are a total failure.
It's Auburn vs. Alabama, Ohio State vs. Michigan...Yale vs. Harvard. It's a black and white battle with one side only looking for and searching out something to attack the other, rather than see the common ground to work from.
You're either for or against. You're either compassionate, or a racist bigot against everything this country was founded.
Fuck that. Why bother debating at all?
WTF is with you people? God forbid you ever encounter an actual liberal, as no "Democrats" or hard left-leaning individuals even post on this site.
So because he demands proof to Kaos's claim that all, or even most, illegal Mexican immigrants are rapists and murderers, and then in the same breath says those "clean European immigrants" who become doctors & lawyers are ok, he's just being a pigheaded bleeding heart liberal? Are you people even for real?
Advocating lining up "brown people" and shooting them on site? That's level headed debate? That's called being a sociopath.
Look, if you want to advocate beefing up border security, or even stricter punishment for the illegals who are caught, then that's fine and dandy. When you think it's a good idea to require a certain race in our country to have their "papers" on them at all times, that is babbling lunacy. When you advocate "shooting them on site. Yes all of them", that is batshit insane.
And the few that say "hold up, don't you guys think you're taking it a little to far?" are the extreme wacko liberals? In what world?
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AWK's response is a perfect example of bleeding heart liberalism.
1. Ignore the direct impact of the total issue of immigration on the country and the financial ruin it's causing.
2. Attack those that oppose the current state of immigration, not immigration itself in an attempt to demonize.
This is exactly why politics in general are a total failure.
It's Auburn vs. Alabama, Ohio State vs. Michigan...Yale vs. Harvard. It's a black and white battle with one side only looking for and searching out something to attack the other, rather than see the common ground to work from.
You're either for or against. You're either compassionate, or a racist bigot against everything this country was founded.
Fuck that. Why bother debating at all?
No. Sorry. Kaos made a completely false statement...then followed it with the ironic "we want the smart ones not the day workers!" comment. I'm sorry if I can't stand by why people make wild statements.
I wasn't commenting on the socio-economic blah blah blah, I was responding to Kaos. Panties, out of a wad.
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Which, by the way, the quote that was ignored by everyone...
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
is from the inscription on the Statue of Liberty...but fuck that, lets shoot 'em all.
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I've gathering data and researching the demographics here to determine exactly what the deciding factors are that separates the angry white men from the elitist. There is a trend, but I'll need a few more days of research before I disclose my findings.
:bugs:
And AWK - MOST of the Europeans did it LEGALLY. I know mine did. I don't know much about you guys or your family history on here but I will tell you a little of mine. 6 of my 8 Great Grandparents descended from County Cavan, Ireland, the other 2 were Welsh. I have photocopies of immigration records where it was done legally -Thanks to ancestry.com (that site is amazing by the way).
You cannot tell me that MOST people jumping the southern border want to be LEGAL fruitful citizens, in it for the long haul and want to help America build into something greater while assimilating into our society. The Europeans did it the way it was intended. If they hadn't America never would have became what it is. There are stark differences in the immigration from 1780-1930 and the current influx. One group played by the rules, and the other is not.
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WTF is with you people? God forbid you ever encounter an actual liberal, as no "Democrats" or hard left-leaning individuals even post on this site.
So because he demands proof to Kaos's claim that all, or even most, illegal Mexican immigrants are rapists and murderers, and then in the same breath says those "clean European immigrants" who become doctors & lawyers are ok, he's just being a pigheaded bleeding heart liberal? Are you people even for real?
Advocating lining up "brown people" and shooting them on site? That's level headed debate? That's called being a sociopath.
Look, if you want to advocate beefing up border security, or even stricter punishment for the illegals who are caught, then that's fine and dandy. When you think it's a good idea to require a certain race in our country to have their "papers" on them at all times, that is babbling lunacy. When you advocate "shooting them on site. Yes all of them", that is batshit insane.
And the few that say "hold up, don't you guys think you're taking it a little to far?" are the extreme wacko liberals? In what world?
I think if you go back and look at my posts, you'll find that I'm about as center as I could be. Nothing close to whacko righty. In fact, I even catagorized CC's post (about the shooting, blah blah) as idiotic in response to TH's post.
Look, my issue is (and it's happening here, just like it is nationally), that you're either for, or against, and if you're against the Arizona bill, or against slowing down the flow of immigrants into this country, that you're automatically coming from a racist premise. That is fundementally false.
I'm not against immigrants. I'm not against those wanting to come here for a better life. I applaud that, and I don't care what end of the socio-economic scale that comes from.
However, when millions of people are here NOW that we can NOT control, and all I hear are long term plans from the far left that seems to solve the problem maybe in ten years, and not in the immediate, or even shorter terms (say less than 3-5 years), I see a major gap and ignorance to the problems that exist.
I called AWK a bleeding heart liberal (in his response only) because of the Statue of Liberty reference. Who here doesn't love the Statue of Liberty and what it stands for? I'd guess, nobody. However, if he had just gone after Kaos's reference, and attacked that only, he probably wouldn't have heard from me. I think the fact that there isn't a current issue with undocumented Europeans (in general) makes even bringing that arguement is apples and oranges in this case. It doesn't exist, and it doesn't have squat to do with race.
I hope I'm clear.
Which, by the way, the quote that was ignored by everyone...
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
is from the inscription on the Statue of Liberty...but fuck that, lets shoot 'em all.
I think your issue is with CCTAU and others that have that issue, and maybe you should address them directly instead of using "everyone" ignored....
I think we've seen it. I believe in what it says, but freedom isn't free in terms of the lives lost to provide it, and the responsibilities that come with it once it's earned.
Let's not forget that part everytime you decide to play the emotion card, and post that passage.
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I think if you go back and look at my posts, you'll find that I'm about as center as I could be. Nothing close to whacko righty. In fact, I even catagorized CC's post (about the shooting, blah blah) as idiotic in response to TH's post.
Look, my issue is (and it's happening here, just like it is nationally), that you're either for, or against, and if you're against the Arizona bill, or against slowing down the flow of immigrants into this country, that you're automatically coming from a racist premise. That is fundementally false.
I'm not against immigrants. I'm not against those wanting to come here for a better life. I applaud that, and I don't care what end of the socio-economic scale that comes from.
However, when millions of people are here NOW that we can NOT control, and all I hear are long term plans from the far left that seems to solve the problem maybe in ten years, and not in the immediate, or even shorter terms (say less than 3-5 years), I see a major gap and ignorance to the problems that exist.
I called AWK a bleeding heart liberal (in his response only) because of the Statue of Liberty reference. Who here doesn't love the Statue of Liberty and what it stands for? I'd guess, nobody. However, if he had just gone after Kaos's reference, and attacked that only, he probably wouldn't have heard from me. I think the fact that there isn't a current issue with undocumented Europeans (in general) makes even bringing that arguement is apples and oranges in this case. It doesn't exist, and it doesn't have squat to do with race.
I hope I'm clear.
I think your issue is with CCTAU and others that have that issue, and maybe you should address them directly instead of using "everyone" ignored....
I think we've seen it. I believe in what it says, but freedom isn't free in terms of the lives lost to provide it, and the responsibilities that come with it once it's earned.
Let's not forget that part everytime you decide to play the emotion card, and post that passage.
No. Kaos made a comment, I responded. It had nothing to do you.
You called me a bleeding heart liberal because I made a reference to the statue of liberty...and you believe that European documented immigrants are different than illegals today. I have to disagree.
READ THIS CAREFULLY, BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT. Most immigrants of that time were granted documents once they stepped off the boat. They had a system in place that worked. Now a days, we could do the same, and choose not to. That is our fatal flaw.
The statue of liberty reference pertains to this very situation, whether you like it or not. Just because it is counter to a belief you have or the way you think does not it make it "different this time." Freedom is a two way street, you have to accept the good with the bad. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
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Commerce clause.. It sucks, but that's how Congress has authority to pass something like the HC Bill. They can create laws/or programs for anything affecting interstate commerce. It's a very broad power.
Currently health care policies can't be sold across state lines. That's why there is Blue Cross / Blue Shield of Alabama, BCBS Georgia, etc. Telling an American citizen they MUST purchase something from the US government or face a fine or penalty sounds pretty unconstitutional to me. And don't compare it to auto insurance, as the lib-idiots like to do.
If you CHOOSE to take advantage of the OPTION of driving a car, there are rules that come with that. You only HAVE to have auto insurance if you CHOOSE own an automobile. The only way to avoid the mandate of paying for health insurance is to be a dead person. That doesn't sound like much of a choice, and definitely doesn't sound like freedom.
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Currently health care policies can't be sold across state lines. That's why there is Blue Cross / Blue Shield of Alabama, BCBS Georgia, etc. Telling an American citizen they MUST purchase something from the US government or face a fine or penalty sounds pretty unconstitutional to me. And don't compare it to auto insurance, as the lib-idiots like to do.
If you CHOOSE to take advantage of the OPTION of driving a car, there are rules that come with that. You only HAVE to have auto insurance if you CHOOSE own an automobile. The only way to avoid the mandate of paying for health insurance is to be a dead person. That doesn't sound like much of a choice, and definitely doesn't sound like freedom.
Income Tax.
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And don't compare it to auto insurance, as the lib-idiots like to do.
If you CHOOSE to take advantage of the OPTION of driving a car, there are rules that come with that. You only HAVE to have auto insurance if you CHOOSE own an automobile.
And this is at the state level as well. Albeit too for a good reason.
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No. Kaos made a comment, I responded. It had nothing to do you.
You called me a bleeding heart liberal because I made a reference to the statue of liberty...and you believe that European documented immigrants are different than illegals today. I have to disagree.
Your assertion that a non documented "illegal" immigrant is NOT different than a "documented legal European immigrant" is interesting. Not sure where you're coming from there.
Also, I called your response an example of "bleeding heart liberalism". Not so much claiming you are one. I don't know quite enough about your politics to accurately pin it on you. Politics are personal, and I'm going to be fairly careful with how it's slung around.
READ THIS CAREFULLY, BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT. Most immigrants of that time were granted documents once they stepped off the boat. They had a system in place that worked. Now a days, we could do the same, and choose not to. That is our fatal flaw.
AWK. This is very simple. We simply can not, and could not afford this as a country today. I'm willing to bet there's at least three times (or more) people in this country today, than there was during the days of Ellis Island and the boats you're referencing.
We choose not too (and not just republicans), because it would be simply irresponsible.
The statue of liberty reference pertains to this very situation, whether you like it or not. Just because it is counter to a belief you have or the way you think does not it make it "different this time." Freedom is a two way street, you have to accept the good with the bad. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
This is just flat out false. It's how you read it. I'm cool with that.
However, at the same time you reference that, you throw out and disregard the Constitution, and every law ever made on immigration law, and the responsibility of US citizens to pay taxes.
Its an argumenent you're clinging to based on purely emotion, and that's all.
Now listen, one more time, I'll state that I have NO issue with immigration, and in time I'd hope that we continue to allow any and all (yes, the sick and poor etc...), but untill there is some relative control over what is NOT under control now, it would simply be irresponsible to allow the increases and lowered standards that most left leaning folks are suggesting. The infrastructure isn't there. The security isn't there. The money isn't there. I would be a catastrophe, even more than it already is today.
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Income Tax.
Which is technically "constitutional" now thanks to a certain 16th amendment.
BUT...
The definition of income, as described by the 16th Amendment, is defined by the Supreme Court as, “Income is profits and gains deriving from corporate activity,” i.e. not individuals’ labor.
The Constitution allows for two types of taxes. Direct and Apportioned taxes. Article 1, section 2 states, “direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states.”
The income tax is a direct tax for which is not apportioned among the states, thus making it unconstitutional. Its also worth noting that the required number of states never properly ratified the 16th Amendment. But its never held up in court.
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Not the same thing at all.
Actually, it is the exact same thing as his bolded comment. Telling an American citizen they must pay for something or they get fined.
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Actually, it is the exact same thing as his bolded comment. Telling an American citizen they must pay for something or they get fined.
See my post above - both unconstitutional.
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Actually, it is the exact same thing as his bolded comment. Telling an American citizen they must pay for something or they get fined.
Americans can choose whether or not to buy a service, just the same as they buy a house, car, food or any other goods. We're not going to agree on this one. I'm just going to leave it alone.
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Actually, it is the exact same thing as his bolded comment. Telling an American citizen they must pay for something or they get fined.
What if the citizen doesn't work? Do they still have to pay income taxes? Serious question.
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As is usually the case, I would bet if we got off the tangents there wouldn't be a whole lot most of us disagree with.
Immigration is good. No problem with it. As of right now, we have laws of HOW you immigrate into this country. The laws in place allow for around 900,000 to 1,000,000 a year this way, but we've seen years as high as 1.8 million as recently as 1991 and as low as 700k as recently as 2003..
To me, any one of any race from any economic background and any intelligence could be one of those 1,000,000 people:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
AWK, you are kind of responding as if you think people that are against ILLEGAL immigration do not agree with what's written above. That just couldn't be further from the truth. I love those five lines you posted. I love that we still take those who want to make a life here.
BUT BUT BUT, I hate that we don't do it by the laws that provide an avenue for such immigration.
So what we have are two immigrants...the ones who take the legal path, and the ones that do not. And that is where my division on the subject comes from. I DO want legal immigrants to come find their dream here. I DO NOT, no matter how loving, respectful, generous, and church-going they may be, want ILLEGAL immigrants here. It simply is not worth it. As noted in several previous posts, it casts a HUGE burden on nearly every aspect of American culture...jails, insurance companies, health care, crime, etc...all things we pay for on their behalf. I'm fine with paying for those things on behalf of the 1,000,000 legal immigrants.
And while you may not agree with the manner in which Kaos said it, but the overall point is pretty right on. If you take the crime and expense put on our society by ILLEGAL immigrants verses that which comes with the LEGAL immigrant...well, I don't think it would be much of a contest, and I don't think any honest person on here needs to see official numbers to agree.
So, let's not shoot and kill them on the spot, but lets seal up the border. That doesn't mean no one is allowed to immigrate into America....it just means they have to do it legally. I'm just baffled as to why this is even a discussion. Doesn't the last sentence I just wrote seem so obvious and agreeable by all sides?
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What if the citizen doesn't work? Do they still have to pay income taxes? Serious question.
I think they have to FILE. 46% dont pay taxes right now.
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What if the citizen doesn't work? Do they still have to pay income taxes? Serious question.
What's ironic is that most people don't pay income tax, but that won't mean they don't have to pay for health care.
AWK, I would also argue that there is some difference in paying a tax and purchasing a service. And as GH stated, they are probably both unconstitutional, but there is no going back on taxes now, and that's exactly what the Democrats are planning on with the health care bill. Not constitutional? Passed by reconciliation? Who cares, it's official now and there is no going back. That's what they're counting on.
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What if the citizen doesn't work? Do they still have to pay income taxes? Serious question.
You have to file. You won't pay anything if you don't work.
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I think they have to FILE. 46% dont pay taxes right now.
But not even all workers have to file do they? If you're a 1099 worker and make less than $600 or something, you don't have to file.
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But not even all workers have to file do they? If you're a 1099 worker and make less than $600 or something, you don't have to file.
If you don't have any income you don't have to file, but you should. Let me just say, that it is in your best interests to file even if you make $0.
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So, let's not shoot and kill them on the spot, but lets seal up the border. That doesn't mean no one is allowed to immigrate into America....it just means they have to do it legally. I'm just baffled as to why this is even a discussion. Doesn't the last sentence I just wrote seem so obvious and agreeable by all sides?
You only have the shoot a couple. The rest will figure it out quickly.......
BTW. How do you seal up a border without consequences for crossing it? Do you have someone standing there saying "Please stop?"
It really comes down to whether or not you have a junkyard dog with teeth or without. We are like the homeowner who has no dog but puts up a beware of dog sign. As soon as thieves find out you really have no dog, are you really protected?
If we are found entering Mexico illegally, how are we treated? Maybe we set up special hell holes for illegal immigrants and treat them the same as they would have been treated in a Mexican prison.
But amnesty and acceptance damn sure isn't the answer. We have to find something that creates a barrier. And in doing that, it may have to include not so nice things.
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BTW. How do you seal up a border without consequences for crossing it? Do you have someone standing there saying "Please stop?"
Actually I think we are going to use the phrase that is used in Great Britain.....
"STOP! or I'll say stop again."
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Once again let me ask a logical "common sense" question:
How would one go about finding ILLEGAL Mexican immigrants if you don't "profile" the Mexican looking people? I'm betting you could ask millions of white people and find not one illegal Mexican immigrant.
It's just like when we get pulled over by the police on Friday or Saturday night. It doesn't seem to be that hard for an officer to ask, "Have you been drinking tonight?". Why would it be anymore difficult or even unconstitutional for an officer to ask everyone if they're in the country legally? I just don't get it...
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Which, by the way, the quote that was ignored by everyone...
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
is from the inscription on the Statue of Liberty...but phuk that, lets shoot 'em all.
Yep... Statue of Liberty... Not the US Constitution, Declaration of Independence or...
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That's the difference. There are many more just like me that are afraid to say anything because of the self-righteous little pricks like you. But the fact remains that our country is being invaded by people who could care less what happens to it 20 -30 years down the road. Because by then, we will all be no better than Mexico, and the invaders would have won. I'm glad you are pissed. Maybe when your position on the subject causes you considerable discomfort, you will look back on this and think we should have taken a tougher stance. Until then, by all means, adopt an illegal family for your own so my tax dollars do not have to support them.
Yeah, I know there are plenty more like you (reference Cowboy the Bama Fan on Youtube). Why be afraid of speaking out because of me? Because I'm vindictive and staunch in my opinion? Because I base my opinion on realistic goals and with the consideration of people? Because I have an ounce of compassion?
Wake the hell up, man. Mexicans have been bum rushing the border since the 60s. It's just now finally getting to be numbers that make you notice them. We're fine. We have economic problems because the government doesn't know what it's doing. NOT because Mexicans here are working hard and trying to better their lives for their kids.
And assuming they don't care about this country shows your ignorance. They care. They'd only like to go back to Mexico if it had the quality of life that America offers. You hate them for that? Why?
Also, what fucking discomfort have they directly caused you? What have they done that murderous white people, drug dealing black people, and lazy ass American citizens haven't already caused you? Should we shoot them too? I mean, hell, just a few and it'll fix the problems, right? Shoot those negroes a few times - they'll quit wearing those saggy jeans and listening to their hippity hop.
READ THIS CAREFULLY, BECAUSE IT IS IMPORTANT. Most immigrants of that time were granted documents once they stepped off the boat. They had a system in place that worked. Now a days, we could do the same, and choose not to. That is our fatal flaw.
This. This times ten million. Anger directed towards Mexicans (or other hispanics) is irrelevant. It serves no purpose besides perpetrating a well-known and old perception that white Americans are intolerable of other people.
The anger should be directed towards our federal government and the business owners that have allowed this to happen. You want hispanics out of the country? Quit supporting business and politicians that make America seem like such a paradise if they simply hop the border and hitch hike to Alabaster, Alabama.
Let me give you an example from my personal experience:
Teacher allows her kids to talk for fifteen minutes at the start of each class. Then she yells and screams for them to get quiet and serious about her lesson. They never do. She talks over them. Asks why they aren't listening. Promises punishment in the future. They don't care because it's all baseless threats. One day, she decides that after fifteen minutes, she's going to have a few of the talking students expelled. A few young lives tarnished and possibly ruined.
Did she take the proper action? Or was it her fault they're clowning around in the first place?
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Town...
Simple question. While we have NO idea who's in our country now, and at a time where we can't get Americans (regardless of race, color, etc...) enough jobs, what makes you think it's a good job to be discussing all that now?
I can appreciate the desire for the US to be an open Utopian dream for any and all, but for fuck sake, we can't fucking afford it right now.
What you folks don't either seem to want, or bother understanding, is that we simply don't have the resources to take care of any more needy people that have chose ON THEIR OWN to bypass the legal system to come here and suffer. It's THEIR fault ALSO.
I agree with regulating and punishing businesses that allow it to happen, but that's only going to make the illegals that are here suffer more. That doesn't fit your love for the mexican people either.
So what are we to do in the meantime?
Hmmm... Control the border, and use the necessary means to do it? (and no, that doesn't mean shooting people...)
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Town...
Simple question. While we have NO idea who's in our country now, and at a time where we can't get Americans (regardless of race, color, etc...) enough jobs, what makes you think it's a good job to be discussing all that now.
I can appreciate the desire for the US to be an open Utopian dream for any and all, but for fuck sake, we can't fucking afford it right now.
What you folks don't either seem to want, or bother understanding, is that we simply don't have the resources to take care of any more needy people that have chose ON THEIR OWN to bypass the legal system to come here and suffer. It's THEIR fault ALSO.
I agree with regulating and punishing businesses that allow it to happen, but that's only going to make the illegals that are here suffer more. That doesn't fit your love for the mexican people either.
So what are we to do in the meantime?
Hmmm... Control the border, and use the necessary means to do it? (and no, that doesn't mean shooting people...)
Don't confuse my argument against CCTAU as an antithesis to immigration control.
And yes, it is their fault. Big time their fault. I think illegal immigrants should be shipped back. I think we need a big high tech wall with super-duper surveillance. We need funding and support from the federal government. We need a highly trained and effective branch of police to seek out illegals in order to protect our national security.
However, I recognize the predicament we are in. We've (we, us, you, me, I, everyone) allowed this problem to persist. We created it. We didn't stop it when it started. We let it fester until it became a nuissance.
We are the most powerful, considerate, and humane superpower in the history of the world - or at least, that's what we try to be. Unless you're cool with sparking Latino Riotos across the country, you'll recognize that a mass deportation of 12 million+ people is out of the question. It's not an answer.
Using Hitler's fear tactics isn't an answer either.
My thought is this: these are, for the most part, good people that just want to enjoy the opportunities our nation provides them. Grant them amnesty. A good portion of them will take advantage. The few that don't are probably the troublemakers in the first place. But for those who do, the ones I've personally dealt with the past three years, they'll be adding to the quality of our country as opposed to detracting from it.
Again, saying that you don't want to take care of them through government handouts isn't their fault. They aren't the ones who are causing government handouts. The people in office are responsible for handouts, higher taxes, and rewriting of the constitutino. That's where the fault lies. That's who is forcing you to take care of the needy people.
And I don't think punishing the businesses that hire them will hurt illegals. Some will struggle to adapt, but they're hard workers. It's not like they're doing shit work for less money. These people work hard and are generally good at what they do. I think it was JaDennis that referred to his family member hiring Mexicans. You can research Anthony Bourdain's opinion on hispanic chefs. He thinks they're the best in the world and are underappreciated because they work for so little money.
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Don't confuse my argument against CCTAU as an antithesis to immigration control.
Gotcha.
And yes, it is their fault. Big time their fault. I think illegal immigrants should be shipped back. I think we need a big high tech wall with super-duper surveillance. We need funding and support from the federal government. We need a highly trained and effective branch of police to seek out illegals in order to protect our national security.
However, I recognize the predicament we are in. We've (we, us, you, me, I, everyone) allowed this problem to persist. We created it. We didn't stop it when it started. We let it fester until it became a nuissance.
We are the most powerful, considerate, and humane superpower in the history of the world - or at least, that's what we try to be. Unless you're cool with sparking Latino Riotos across the country, you'll recognize that a mass deportation of 12 million+ people is out of the question. It's not an answer.
Good stuff, and I agree 100%.
Using Hitler's fear tactics isn't an answer either.
I cringed here a little, because I think it's a little much, but maybe you're not suggesting the Arizona law is quite that far fetched.
My thought is this: these are, for the most part, good people that just want to enjoy the opportunities our nation provides them. Grant them amnesty. A good portion of them will take advantage. The few that don't are probably the troublemakers in the first place. But for those who do, the ones I've personally dealt with the past three years, they'll be adding to the quality of our country as opposed to detracting from it.
I can believe in this also. However, I'd like to see efforts made on that super duper surveillance system and border control first, so that more don't pour in looking for said amnesty. We probably will just have to agree to disagree there.
Again, saying that you don't want to take care of them through government handouts isn't their fault. They aren't the ones who are causing government handouts.
The certainly aren't helping it either. I agree with what you're about to say here... The people in office are responsible for handouts, higher taxes, and rewriting of the constitutino. That's where the fault lies. That's who is forcing you to take care of the needy people.
It's the government's fault, but don't forget that ultimately the act of coming here and crossing the border illegally is in fact a crime. A crime they chose to break of their own free will. They're not squeeky clean in all this, and have to take some of the blame, not just the government. It doesn't have anything to do with how nice they are to you, or how nice they are to others once they're here.
And I don't think punishing the businesses that hire them will hurt illegals. Some will struggle to adapt, but they're hard workers. It's not like they're doing shit work for less money. These people work hard and are generally good at what they do. I think it was JaDennis that referred to his family member hiring Mexicans. You can research Anthony Bourdain's opinion on hispanic chefs. He thinks they're the best in the world and are underappreciated because they work for so little money.
I don't necessarily have a problem with this. I'm not sure it won't effect them adversely, but I suppose they could adapt in time. Documentation and curbing the illegal immigration aspect would make this a much more easier thing to control.
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Gotcha.
Good stuff, and I agree 100%.
I cringed here a little, because I think it's a little much, but maybe you're not suggesting the Arizona law is quite that far fetched.
I can believe in this also. However, I'd like to see efforts made on that super duper surveillance system and border control first, so that more don't pour in looking for said amnesty. We probably will just have to agree to disagree there.
The certainly aren't helping it either. I agree with what you're about to say here...
It's the government's fault, but don't forget that ultimately the act of coming here and crossing the border illegally is in fact a crime. A crime they chose to break of their own free will. They're not squeeky clean in all this, and have to take some of the blame, not just the government. It doesn't have anything to do with how nice they are to you, or how nice they are to others once they're here.
I don't necessarily have a problem with this. I'm not sure it won't effect them adversely, but I suppose they could adapt in time. Documentation and curbing the illegal immigration aspect would make this a much more easier thing to control.
Good stuff, Chop. And the Hitler reference wasn't to the Arizona law. It was for CCTAU. His idea of "shooting a few" is exactly what Hitler thought. He believed fear was the ultimate form of government (see The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer).
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Good stuff, Chop. And the Hitler reference wasn't to the Arizona law. It was for CCTAU. His idea of "shooting a few" is exactly what Hitler thought. He believed fear was the ultimate form of government (see The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer).
He actually was a fan of inbreeding through euthanasia.
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Good stuff, Chop. And the Hitler reference wasn't to the Arizona law. It was for CCTAU. His idea of "shooting a few" is exactly what Hitler thought. He believed fear was the ultimate form of government (see The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer).
I don't go downtown Atlanta after dark for FEAR of getting mugged, shot, raped, robbed, etc..
Fear is a great motivator when the fear is motivated by certain actions.
Build a wall? And then what? Watch them build a tunnel or ladder over it. YOU are full of ever-loving shit.
If you feel all illegals should be deported, then why the sob story over YOUR illegal friends?
And we are not afraid to speak out because we are afraid of you and your undulating intellect brow beating us down. We just don't feel like dealing with limp-wristed weenies that propose to give our country away in the name of love.
Now I am Hitler? Whatever. I guess there is a whole generation of us Hitlers out here who have no problem with closing the borders and using force to keep them closed.
So as you sit and wring your weenie, I laugh at you and those like you. You are the ones who in the end will figure out that love ain't always the answer. And in that regard, why don't you support and adopt YOUR special illegal mexican families and at least they might not suck up as much of the rest of our tax money as before. If all of those like you would adopt and sponsor and pay for these people, we would not have a need for any immigration laws at all. Love will find a way.
At some point in time we are going to have to either surrender to the illegals, or stand up and fight back. We know which side you are on.
I suggest some of you start practicing. Its gonna get pretty scary before too long:
http://www.resist.com/other/border_patrol.swf (http://www.resist.com/other/border_patrol.swf)
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I don't go downtown Atlanta after dark for FEAR of getting mugged, shot, raped, robbed, etc..
Fear is a great motivator when the fear is motivated by certain actions.
Build a wall? And then what? Watch them build a tunnel or ladder over it. YOU are full of ever-loving shit.
If you feel all illegals should be deported, then why the sob story over YOUR illegal friends?
And we are not afraid to speak out because we are afraid of you and your undulating intellect brow beating us down. We just don't feel like dealing with limp-wristed weenies that propose to give our country away in the name of love.
Now I am Hitler? Whatever. I guess there is a whole generation of us Hitlers out here who have no problem with closing the borders and using force to keep them closed.
So as you sit and wring your weenie, I laugh at you and those like you. You are the ones who in the end will figure out that love ain't always the answer. And in that regard, why don't you support and adopt YOUR special illegal mexican families and at least they might not suck up as much of the rest of our tax money as before. If all of those like you would adopt and sponsor and pay for these people, we would not have a need for any immigration laws at all. Love will find a way.
At some point in time we are going to have to either surrender to the illegals, or stand up and fight back. We know which side you are on.
You're an absolute dolt. Typical. I'm not surprised. It's an ongoing problem in this country.
You can't understand how anyone could sympathize with them. Those illegals. Gosh, I bet it makes you cringe just reading the word. You probably squeeze your fingers into your sweaty palm just at the thought of those nasty cockroaches hiding underneath your GE double door refridgerator. Fucking bugs. Get my Raid spray and annihilate them sum-bitches. Invading my sheeyat.
I hear ya, big man. Loud and clear. We've got a roach problem. Time to call the Orkin man. Stick that sign in my front lawn (green grass of course - all year round) that tells those nasty masa-smelling insects they don't belong here.
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You're an absolute dolt. Typical. I'm not surprised. It's an ongoing problem in this country.
You can't understand how anyone could sympathize with them. Those illegals. Gosh, I bet it makes you cringe just reading the word. You probably squeeze your fingers into your sweaty palm just at the thought of those nasty cockroaches hiding underneath your GE double door refridgerator. Fucking bugs. Get my Raid spray and annihilate them sum-bitches. Invading my sheeyat.
I hear ya, big man. Loud and clear. We've got a roach problem. Time to call the Orkin man. Stick that sign in my front lawn (green grass of course - all year round) that tells those nasty masa-smelling insects they don't belong here.
Now you are getting it. Did you practice up? How good are you?
Oh what the hell you convinced me. Open up the border. Let them all in. I mean after all we gots plenty for everyone.
And I take offense the "absolute" part of your post.
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I'm starting to get the idea that only a few people are engaged in this thread for the sole purpose of finding a real solution to the problem.
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I'm starting to get the idea that only a few people are engaged in this thread for the sole purpose of finding a real solution to the problem.
Since when is TigersX responsible for solving immigration, or anything else for that matter? I'm pretty sure that any new policy solutions formulated on this site in retarded rants will never make it to Congress. You, sir, are imposing too much responsibility on the TigersX community.
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I'm starting to get the idea that only a few people are engaged in this thread for the sole purpose of finding a real solution to the problem.
But that would be boring.
You've got three options:
1. Amnesty
2. Deportation
3. Shoot them
We've covered that. Now we're just all trying to piss each other off.
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We've covered that. Now we're just all trying to piss each other off.
It's funny cause it's true.
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But that would be boring.
You've got three options:
1. Shoot them
2. Deportation
3. Amnesty
We've covered that. Now we're just all trying to piss each other off.
I agree.
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Now we're just all trying to piss each other off.
Thats pretty much what every political thread on here becomes.
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Thats pretty much what every political thread on here becomes.
Drummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm rollllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.
IT'S GAY THREAD HIJACK TIME!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGLZqDXau98# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGLZqDXau98#)
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Drummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm rollllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.
IT'S GAY THREAD HIJACK TIME!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGLZqDXau98# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGLZqDXau98#)
Hallelujah....
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What do you think would have happened if I'd asked them to tone it down?
bang, bang, bang?
Just kidding.
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bang, bang, bang?
Just kidding.
Not far from the truth, though.
Was at a Fourth of July thing in Columbus Mississippi about 12 years ago. Couple of punks (mix of black and white) were having a conversation and sprinkling it with "motherfuck, fuck, GD" over and over. I finally asked them very politely...
"Guys would you mind watching the profanity? I got my wife and five-year old daughter here..."
I got back "Fuck you, whitebread, go somewhere else."
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Drummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm rollllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.
IT'S GAY THREAD HIJACK TIME!
Why can't "you people" keep it in your closet? It was so much nicer back when people kept their sexuality to themselves. Now, "you people" have to announce it, advertise it, stick it in everyone's faces and force them to accept it. Has it ever occurred to you that we don't care?
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Why can't "you people" keep it in your closet? It was so much nicer back when people kept their sexuality to themselves. Now, "you people" have to announce it, advertise it, stick it in everyone's faces and force them to accept it. Has it ever occurred to you that we don't care?
I can't stand that people express themselves! RABBLE RABBLE!
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Why can't "you people" keep it in your closet? It was so much nicer back when people kept their sexuality to themselves. Now, "you people" have to announce it, advertise it, stick it in everyone's faces and force them to accept it. Has it ever occurred to you that we don't care?
I care! I have a three step plan that includes amnesty....eventually.
See previous posts for plan details.
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I care! I have a three step plan that includes amnesty....eventually.
See previous posts for plan details.
:bugs:
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I can't stand that people express themselves! RABBLE RABBLE!
Just keep it to yourself... Your "conquests" are no concern of mine.
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May 1, 2010 7:00 A.M.
What Arizona Must Live With
Gordon Brown called Gillian Duffy a “bigot,” then got into his limo and drove away. Remind you of anybody?
As I write, I have my papers on me — and not just because I’m in Arizona. I’m an immigrant, and it is a condition of my admission to this great land that I carry documentary proof of my residency status with me at all times and be prepared to produce it to law-enforcement officials, whether on a business trip to Tucson or taking a 20-minute stroll in the woods back at my pad in New Hampshire.
Who would impose such an outrageous Nazi fascist discriminatory law?
Er, well, that would be Franklin Roosevelt.
But don’t let the fine print of the New Deal prevent you from going into full-scale meltdown. “Boycott Arizona-stan!” urges MSNBC’s Keith Olbermann, surely a trifle Islamophobically. What has some blameless Central Asian basket case done to deserve being compared to a hellhole like Phoenix?
Boycott Arizona Iced Tea, jests Travis Nichols of Chicago. It is “the drink of fascists.” Just as regular tea is the drink of racists, according to Newsweek’s in-depth and apparently non-satirical poll analysis of anti-Obama protests. At San Francisco’s City Hall, where bottled water is banned as the drink of climate denialists, Mayor Gavin Newsom is boycotting for real: All official visits to Arizona have been canceled indefinitely. You couldn’t get sanctions like these imposed at the U.N. Security Council, but then, unlike Arizona, Iran is not a universally reviled pariah.
Will a full-scale economic embargo devastate the Copper State? Who knows? It’s not clear to me what San Francisco imports from Arizona. Chaps? But, at any rate, like the bottled-water ban, it sends a strong signal that this kind of hate will not be tolerated.
The same day that Mayor Newsom took his bold stand, I saw a phalanx of police officers doing the full Robocop — black body armor, helmets, and visors — as they marched down the street. Goosestepping? No, it’s actually quite hard to goosestep in those steel-reinforced kneepads. So just regular marching. Naturally, I assumed they were Arizona state troopers performing a routine traffic stop. In fact, they were the police department of Quincy, Ill., facing down a group of genial tea-party grandmas in sun hats and American-flag T-shirts. They were acting at the behest of President Obama’s Secret Service, who rightly recognized a polite knot of citizens singing “God Bless America” as a clear and present danger to the republic.
If I were a member of the Quincy PD, I’d wear a full-face visor, too, because I wouldn’t be able to look myself in the mirror. It’s a tough job making yourself a paramilitary laughingstock.
And yet the coastal frothers denouncing Arizona as the Third Reich or, at best, apartheid South Africa seem entirely relaxed about the ludicrous and embarrassing sight of peaceful protesters being menaced by camp stormtroopers from either a dinner-theater space-opera or uniforms night at Mayor Newsom’s reelection campaign.
Meanwhile, in Britain, a flailing Prime Minister Gordon Brown was on the stump in northern England and met an actual voter, one Gillian Duffy. Alas, she made the mistake of expressing very mild misgivings about immigration. And not the black, brown, and yellow kind, but only the faintly swarthy Balkan blokes from Eastern Europe. And actually, all she said about immigrants was that “you can’t say anything about the immigrants.” The prime minister brushed it aside blandly, made some chit-chat about her grandkids, and got back in his limo, forgetting that he was still miked. “That was a disaster,” he sighed. “Should never have put me with that woman. Whose idea was that . . . ? She’s just this sort of bigoted woman.”
After the broadcast of his “gaffe,” and the sight of Brown slumped with his head in his hands as a radio interviewer replayed the remarks to him, the prime minister found himself going round to Gillian Duffy’s home to abase himself before her. Most of the initial commentary focused on what the incident revealed about Gordon Brown’s character. But the larger point is what it says about the governing elites and their own voters. Mrs. Duffy is a lifelong supporter of Mr. Brown’s Labour party, but she represents the old working class the party no longer has much time for. Travis Nichols may be joking about “the drink of fascists,” but, in the same way as Gavin Newsom and Keith Olbermann, Gordon Brown genuinely believes Gillian Duffy has drunk deeply from the drink of bigots for so much as raising the subject of immigration. How dare she! Ungrateful bigot!
Gillian Duffy lives in the world Gordon Brown has created. He, on the other hand, gets into his chauffeured limo and is whisked far away from it.
That’s Arizona. To the coastal commentariat, “undocumented immigrants” are the people who mow your lawn while you’re at work and clean your office while you’re at home. (That, for the benefit of Linda Greenhouse, is the real apartheid: the acceptance of a permanent “undocumented” servant class by far too many “documented” Americans who assuage their guilt by pathetic sentimentalization of immigration.) But in border states, illegal immigration is life and death. I spoke this week to a lady who has a camp of illegals on the edge of her land: She lies awake at night, fearful for her children and alert to strange noises in the yard. President Obama, shooting from his lip, attacked the new law as an offense against “fairness.” Where’s the fairness for this woman’s family? Because her home is in Arizona rather than Hyde Park, Chicago, she’s just supposed to get used to living under siege? Like Gillian Duffy in northern England, this lady has to live there, while the political class that created this situation climbs back into the limo and gets driven far away.
Almost every claim made for the benefits of mass immigration is false. Europeans were told that they needed immigrants to help prop up their otherwise unaffordable social entitlements: In reality, Turks in Germany have three times the rate of welfare dependency as ethnic Germans, and their average retirement age is 50. Two-thirds of French imams are on the dole.
But wait: What about the broader economic benefits? The World Bank calculated that if rich countries increased their workforce by a mere 3 percent through admitting an extra 14 million people from developing countries, it would benefit the populations of those rich countries by $139 billion. Wow!
As Christopher Caldwell points out in his book Reflections on the Revolution in Europe, “The aggregate gross domestic product of the advanced economies for the year 2008 is estimated by the International Monetary Fund at close to $40 trillion.” So an extra $139 billion works out to a spectacular 0.35 percent. Caldwell compares the World Bank argument to Austin Powers’s nemesis, Dr. Evil, holding the world hostage for one million dollars! “Sacrificing 0.0035 of your economy would be a pittance to pay for starting to get your country back.” A dependence on mass immigration is not a gold-mine or an opportunity to flaunt your multicultural bona fides, but a structural weakness, and should be addressed as such.
The majority of Arizona’s schoolchildren are already Hispanic. So, even if you sealed the border today, the state’s future is as a Hispanic society; that’s a given. Maybe it’ll all work out swell. The citizenry never voted for it, but they got it anyway. Because all the smart guys in the limos bemoaning the bigots knew what was best for them.
— Mark Steyn, a National Review columnist, is author of America Alone. © 2010 Mark Steyn.
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With respect to "racial profiling" discussed earlier in this thread and the latest news story...
Times Square bomb suspect nabbed at airport
Pakistani-born U.S. citizen was attempting to fly to Dubai from JFK
NBC, msnbc.com and news services
updated 37 minutes ago
NEW YORK - Authorities arrested a U.S. citizen in connection with the failed bombing attempt in New York's Times Square as he tried to leave the country, Attorney General Eric Holder said Tuesday.
Faisal Shahzad, 30, was arrested at 11:45 p.m. ET Monday night by Customs and Border Protection agents as he attempted to board an Emirates airlines flight to Dubai at New York's JFK airport, officials said.
"It is clear that the intent behind this terrorist act was to kill Americans," Holder said.
<snip>
I was certain that this time, it was going to be a 72 year-old, white woman. I'm shocked. I certainly hope that Mr. Shahzad's 4th and 14th Amendment protections weren't violated. That always seems to be more important than the fact that he tried to kill hundreds, if not thousands, of people.
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I find that it is usually one of these evil people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHEk_kaXmTk# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHEk_kaXmTk#)
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With respect to "racial profiling" discussed earlier in this thread and the latest news story...
I was certain that this time, it was going to be a 72 year-old, white woman. I'm shocked. I certainly hope that Mr. Shahzad's 4th and 14th Amendment protections weren't violated. That always seems to be more important than the fact that he tried to kill hundreds, if not thousands, of people.
Ah now GarMan - lets be nice. He's a human. Maybe he'd prefer some counseling and we can sit around and sing kumbaya. C'mon Mr Terrorist (oooops - man made disaster guy), lets play nice. Yeah - thats it, that'll work.
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Ah now GarMan - lets be nice. He's a human. Maybe he'd prefer some counseling and we can sit around and sing kumbaya. C'mon Mr Terrorist (oooops - man made disaster guy), lets play nice. Yeah - thats it, that'll work.
Yeah, I know... I need to show some of that "empathy" for those with of a different race, religion, sexuality, nationality, etc... Even when his religion mandates death to the non-believers of his religion. Yeah... That makes a lot of sense.
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Yeah, I know... I need to show some of that "empathy" for those with of a different race, religion, sexuality, nationality, etc... Even when his religion mandates death to the non-believers of his religion. Yeah... That makes a lot of sense.
Not everyone that is Muslim is an extremist. Just like not every Christian is an extremist. You are painting with a broad brush.
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What ever happened to that Al-Quadar Timothy Machmud McVeigh Muhammed character?
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What ever happened to that Al-Quadar Timothy Machmud McVeigh Muhammed character?
Or Joseph Achmud Stack Abdulla?
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Or Joseph Achmud Stack Abdulla?
Or Eric Shabazz Rudolph Ali?
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Not everyone that is Muslim is an extremist. Just like not every Christian is an extremist. You are painting with a broad brush.
Nice try... Well... No, that was actually a fairly pathetic attempt. I know, work with and manage several Muslims right now, so your little game accusing me of unreasonable stereotyping doesn't play out. Although, it's still an amazing coincidence that 95 out of 100 terrorists are Muslim. Silly biased stats…
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Nice try... Well... No, that was actually a fairly pathetic attempt. I know, work with and manage several Muslims right now, so your little game accusing me of unreasonable stereotyping doesn't play out. Although, it's still an amazing coincidence that 95 out of 100 terrorists are Muslim. Silly biased stats…
If you work with several Muslims (as do I), yet they are all mandated by their religion to murder non-believers (not just the radical ones), why haven't they attempted to murder you yet?
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If you work with several Muslims (as do I), yet they are all mandated by their religion to murder non-believers (not just the radical ones), why haven't they attempted to murder you yet?
Again, you're just stretching in an attempt to paint me as a racist. I never said "all". That's just your silly fabrication. Many in the US have become "Westernized" or "Americanized", and some pay the price for it...
http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2010-03-31/news/honor-thy-father-muslim-honor-killing-in-phoenix-arizona/ (http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2010-03-31/news/honor-thy-father-muslim-honor-killing-in-phoenix-arizona/)
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Again, you're just stretching in an attempt to paint me as a racist. I never said "all". That's just your silly fabrication. Many in the US have become "Westernized" or "Americanized", and some pay the price for it...
http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2010-03-31/news/honor-thy-father-muslim-honor-killing-in-phoenix-arizona/ (http://www.riverfronttimes.com/2010-03-31/news/honor-thy-father-muslim-honor-killing-in-phoenix-arizona/)
You implied all, but I guess if you never said it...
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You implied all, but I guess if you never said it...
There's no implication or guess, so put your paintbrush down and pay attention to the words for a change.
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There's no implication or guess, so put your paintbrush down and pay attention to the words for a change.
I pay attention to words, a good example would be the names mentioned above. All of which were names of white gentlemen, non-muslims, who committed terrorist attacks.
Also,
Even when his religion mandates death to the non-believers of his religion.
You weren't inferring anything to the Muslim religion and there members...right.
But it's cool, carry on.
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I pay attention to words, a good example would be the names mentioned above. All of which were names of white gentlemen, non-muslims, who committed terrorist attacks.
You'll find nuts and freaks from all walks of life, but there's nothing wrong with identifying the extremist Muslims as a risk to Western Civilization. Call it what you will. It is what it is...
Also,
You weren't inferring anything to the Muslim religion and there members...right.
But it's cool, carry on.
Just the extreme nutjobs... You know who they are, and there's nothing wrong with identifying them.
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http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/05/blame-the-white-man/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/05/blame-the-white-man/)
EDITORIAL: Blame the white man
Leftist racial profiling was thwarted again by reality
By THE WASHINGTON TIMES
There was no joy in liberal land when the prime suspect in the Times Square bomb plot turned out to be a Pakistani-American. The right-wing terrorist boogeyman vanished. Leftist racial and ethnic profiling failed again.
The widely distributed videotape of a lighter-complected suspect near the attack scene - almost universally reported as a "white man" - raised expectations in some quarters that this could be the work of right-wing extremists, maybe even - oh dare it be hoped? - a Tea Party Republican.
The right-wing bomber story line quickly established itself in the meme stream. New York City Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, prompted by CBS News reader Katie Couric, speculated that the culprit was "homegrown, maybe a mentally deranged person or someone with a political agenda that doesn't like the health care bill or something." MSNBC's Chris Matthews and NBC News "terrorist analyst" Roger W. Cressey dwelt long on the idea of the bomber being someone with a "right-wing" agenda. Geraldo Rivera seemed fixated on the idea that the bomber was a "white man." Similar unsubstantiated musings and outright accusations were rife in the liberal blogosphere.
But then a suspect was apprehended on a Dubai-bound airplane, and his name was Faisal Shahzad. Talk about an inconvenient truth. It would be nice if this were just another opportunity to mock the haplessness of those liberals who are so captive to their agenda that they subordinate reality to their warped worldview. Delusions like this, however, place the country in danger.
Whether officials will admit it or not, the United States is at war with a loosely organized sect of Islamic extremists who are attempting to disrupt U.S. interests abroad and create mayhem here at home. Muslim extremists should be considered the default culprits in every random act of terrorism unless compelling evidence exists to the contrary. It's possible that terrorists could be motivated by other orientations - witness Andrew Joseph Stack, who flew a small plane into the Internal Revenue Service offices in Austin, Texas, in February - but such incidents are outliers and, as in the Stack case, tend to be isolated.
The Times Square bombing attempt was the kind of terror attack in which al Qaeda, the Taliban and their cohorts are well-schooled, and it's reasonable to assume this was not an isolated incident, given Mr. Shahzad's recent travels to the Pakistani frontier. This was an attack either directly ordered or inspired by our enemies; it was part of their unfolding war plan against the United States. As in the Christmas Day underwear bombing attempt, we are lucky it failed.
Blaming the white American man is an ingrained habit, driven by political correctness and unapologetic biases. This is the same knee-jerk response that occurred over the October 2002 D.C. snipers. The prevailing view at the time was that the perpetrator was some kind of white, male, veteran, right-wing, religious nut. Commentators, self-appointed terrorism experts and security officials discussed the profile as though it were incontestable. When the shooters turned out to be two black males under the spell of radical Islam who virtually worshipped Osama bin Laden, the narrative collapsed. But the damage was done; shooters John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo passed a police checkpoint during their killing spree, perhaps because they didn't fit the prevailing profile.
Those who style themselves as the intellectual class are so captive to hatred for a particular kind of American citizen that they immediately and without evidence ascribe acts of violence to them. These liberals should reflect on the fact that they've become the most bigoted people in America.
Pardon me...
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
<Clearing my throat...>
- AMEN
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Nope! Not at all!!! I've got nothing to hide, and I've got nothing to worry about. It wouldn't be a hassle at all.
Yeah...
I love folks that want more government intrustion in their lives and seek to justify with "Since I've got nothing to hide..."
I like what Ben Franklin had to say on the subject: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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I love folks that want more government intrustion in their lives and seek to justify with "Since I've got nothing to hide..."
I like what Ben Franklin had to say on the subject: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
I agree with your logic, but I don't see it applying here. All immigrants are already required to carry proof of their status with them at all times. That's not a new requirement. There's no unreasonable or additional "government intrusion" with that. Period...
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I agree with your logic, but I don't see it applying here. All immigrants are already required to carry proof of their status with them at all times. That's not a new requirement. There's no unreasonable or additional "government intrusion" with that. Period...
It's the slippery slope argument. I'm not going to get in to all the misconceptions about illegals here, it would fall on deaf ears. But, the law gives cops carte blanch to detain folks when they have 'reasonable suspicion' they are illegal. (For the record, being "illegal" in this country isn't actually a criminal offense...it's a quasi criminal offense, and basically amounts to little more than a misdemeanor, the crime is illegal entry...the courts have said that remainging illegally isn't a criminal offense...many get here legally and remain after their visas expire...that less true in the border states, but a fact non the less.) Ok, fine...but reasonable suspicion is a VERY low standard, and this law is ripe for abuse of American citizens who are not, and should not be required to carry proof of citizenship (read as being in my best Nazi SS dialect "Zyur Paperz Pleeez!") being detained for not having proof of something they're not required to have in the first place. I think that's the reasonable arguement here...the potential for abuse is so great.
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It's the slippery slope argument. I'm not going to get in to all the misconceptions about illegals here, it would fall on deaf ears. But, the law gives cops carte blanch to detain folks when they have 'reasonable suspicion' they are illegal. (For the record, being "illegal" in this country isn't actually a criminal offense...it's a quasi criminal offense, and basically amounts to little more than a misdemeanor, the crime is illegal entry...the courts have said that remainging illegally isn't a criminal offense...many get here legally and remain after their visas expire...that less true in the border states, but a fact non the less.) Ok, fine...but reasonable suspicion is a VERY low standard, and this law is ripe for abuse of American citizens who are not, and should not be required to carry proof of citizenship (read as being in my best Nazi SS dialect "Zyur Paperz Pleeez!") being detained for not having proof of something they're not required to have in the first place. I think that's the reasonable arguement here...the potential for abuse is so great.
Don't worry. Not just the part about misconceptions about illegals will fall on deaf ears. All the logic, rationality, and facts of your post will fall on deaf ears as well.
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It's the slippery slope argument. I'm not going to get in to all the misconceptions about illegals here, it would fall on deaf ears. But, the law gives cops carte blanch to detain folks when they have 'reasonable suspicion' they are illegal. (For the record, being "illegal" in this country isn't actually a criminal offense...it's a quasi criminal offense, and basically amounts to little more than a misdemeanor, the crime is illegal entry...the courts have said that remainging illegally isn't a criminal offense...many get here legally and remain after their visas expire...that less true in the border states, but a fact non the less.)
Who said anything about detaining anyone? I think there's just as much misconception about the new law as there is about legal vs. illegal status.
Ok, fine...but reasonable suspicion is a VERY low standard, and this law is ripe for abuse of American citizens who are not, and should not be required to carry proof of citizenship (read as being in my best Nazi SS dialect "Zyur Paperz Pleeez!") being detained for not having proof of something they're not required to have in the first place. I think that's the reasonable arguement here...the potential for abuse is so great.
Risky... I agree... Possible? Maybe... I just don't see it happening.
Just imagine the first time something like that did happen. Then, there'd be a problem.
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Risky... I agree... Possible? Maybe... I just don't see it happening.
Just imagine the first time something like that did happen. Then, there'd be a problem.
I think you have much more faith in law enforcement personnel than I do.
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I think you have much more faith in law enforcement personnel than I do.
That may be true... I just don't expect to see many "victims" coming out of this.
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That may be true... I just don't expect to see many "victims" coming out of this.
Whales are victims. More people should worry about saving the whales. There are less of them. Illegals don't need saving.
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I love folks that want more government intrustion in their lives and seek to justify with "Since I've got nothing to hide..."
I like what Ben Franklin had to say on the subject: "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
I by no means want more government intrusion in my life (lord knows there is already too much), however it is CURRENT LAW that all immigrants must carry and be able to show their papers when requested by law enforcement. All I ask is that we actuall apply the laws that are already on the books. If a cop pulls over a truckload full of Mexicans for speeding or some other violation and they can not provide proof of legal status then I say process them and ship them out if needed.
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I by no means want more government intrusion in my life (lord knows there is already too much), however it is CURRENT LAW that all immigrants must carry and be able to show their papers when requested by law enforcement. All I ask is that we actuall apply the laws that are already on the books. If a cop pulls over a truckload full of Mexicans for speeding or some other violation and they can not provide proof of legal status then I say process them and ship them out if needed.
But..But..That is profiling. The only one that was breaking the law was the driver. Besides, like the video showed earlier, before the truck even stopped, all 42 of them would be scattered in different directions.
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...all 42 of them would be scattered in different directions.
That only happens when you shoot the front tires out and the truck rolls over a few times. They'll scatter... No doubt about that.
http://www.jaxobserver.com/2010/05/01/arizona-deputy-shot-in-border-confrontation/ (http://www.jaxobserver.com/2010/05/01/arizona-deputy-shot-in-border-confrontation/)
Saturday, May 1st, 2010
Arizona Deputy Shot in Border Confrontation
PHOENIX – Five Hispanic men authorities described as drug smugglers shot a Pinal County sheriff’s deputy Friday afternoon when the officer came upon them and a large amount of marijuana in a remote part of south-central Arizona.
The area where the shooting took place is considered a high-traffic drug- and human-smuggling corridor.
A massive hunt that included helicopters with night vision and more than 100 officers, including SWAT teams, and search dogs, was pursuing the shooters Friday evening. More than one helicopter came under fire as officers rescued Deputy Louie Puroll, who was shot with an AK-47-type weapon around 4 p.m. MST, according to the sheriff’s office.
Puroll sustained a flesh wound above his kidney, but he was in good condition late Friday at Casa Grande Regional Medical Center.
“Our thoughts&prayers go out to the Pinal County Deputy shot during a stop,” Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer said in a Twitter message on the Internet Friday evening. “Contrary to what some leaders say, our borders are not secure.”
The shooting occurred exactly one week after Brewer signed the toughest anti-immigration law in the country. The legislation has been hotly debated, and it has put Arizona in the national spotlight over how a border state deals with rampant illegal immigration. The legislation has sparked protests and calls to boycott the state.
Pinal County Lt. Tami Villar said Friday’s incident “sends a very powerful and loud message that we have a problem.”
Villar said Puroll, 53, was attacked about 5 miles south of Interstate 8 near its junction with Arizona Highway 84. She said the veteran deputy is assigned to patrol the area known for drug smuggling.
She said the suspects were Hispanic men who “appear to be undocumented.”
Villar said the suspects were armed with long guns and at least one handgun. She said gunfire with helicopters came about an hour after the initial incident. An unknown amount of marijuana apparently handled by the shooters remained in the desert.
The Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office dispatched a helicopter and members of its SWAT team to Pinal County to assist in the case, said Sheriff’s Lt. Brian Lee. Pinal County also requested assistance from the Arizona Department of Public Safety, which responded with two helicopters and a SWAT team.
Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio was headed to Pinal County to assist in the investigation, Lee said. About 70 sheriff’s employees responded to the scene. Lee said most had been involved in a crime suppression sweep in the Maryvale area earlier in the day.
The Border Patrol also sent agents to help the Pinal County Sheriff’s Office with the investigation, said Mario Escalante, a Border Patrol spokesman assigned to the Tucson sector.
Those poor misunderstood illegal immigrants are getting unnecessarily picked on by those racist pigs!
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That only happens when you shoot the front tires out and the truck rolls over a few times. They'll scatter... No doubt about that.
http://www.jaxobserver.com/2010/05/01/arizona-deputy-shot-in-border-confrontation/ (http://www.jaxobserver.com/2010/05/01/arizona-deputy-shot-in-border-confrontation/)
Those poor misunderstood illegal immigrants are getting unnecessarily picked on by those racist pigs!
I don't give two shits about rights of illegals. Arrest them and send them back to Mexico. Or better yet let's stop building a welfare state so they don't want to come here. Or have actual border security.
The problem with the law is that it's going to make USA citizens have to carry around and show papers that they're legal. Racial profiling of citizens of the USA. Fuck.
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I don't give two shits about rights of illegals. Arrest them and send them back to Mexico. Or better yet let's stop building a welfare state so they don't want to come here. Or have actual border security.
The problem with the law is that it's going to make USA citizens have to carry around and show papers that they're legal. Racial profiling of citizens of the USA. Fuck.
(http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/1732/original/winternet.jpg)
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I think you have much more faith in law enforcement personnel than I do.
Perzactly!
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Two VERY simple questions...
1. What can any Arizona law enforcement official do under the Arizona immigration law that a federal law enforcement official cannot already do?
2. What requirement does the Arizona law place on any non-citizen living in Arizona that federal law does not already place on any non-citizen living elsewhere in the United States?
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Two VERY simple questions...
1. What can any Arizona law enforcement official do under the Arizona immigration law that a federal law enforcement official cannot already do?
2. What requirement does the Arizona law place on any non-citizen living in Arizona that federal law does not already place on any non-citizen living elsewhere in the United States?
Are we just tired of this?
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Are we just tired of this?
Our President and Atty Gen havent even read the 10 page bill - yet can prounce around proclaiming it this and that. I just can't believe the dummy got in front of Congress, on TV and admitted he had not read it. This admin just lost me on this issue. Total failure.