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This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy

Tarheel

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #200 on: April 10, 2009, 03:25:54 PM »
I have never said anything about legalizing "without constraints".

Driving high would be treated the same way you would driving drunk. I have provided statistics showing though that driving high is much less of a problem than driving drunk.

So you make the substance illegal because people can drive high? People can (and far more often do) drive drunk, but you're not suggesting that alcohol should be outright criminalized? Why can you see the difference between responsible drinking and a drunk driver, but not responsible marijuana use versus the far less common "high driver"?

So you would have constraints and rules.  Interesting.  That seems to differ from the Libertarians; I can't seem to find anything on their website about a plan (like Portugal, for example) to implement while legalizing/decriminalizing drugs (including cannabis).

Driving high (while arguably not as 'bad' as driving drunk) would cause a cumulative worsening of the problem of DUI.  Comparing it to DUI of alcohol is being irrational.

This is not my logic; this is the logic of the Libertarians.  You can't stop it from happening so just legalize it; let's make an already bad problem worse.  With the current level of irresponsible behavior people have with abusing alcohol I think adding drugs to the mix will be even more dangerous (and deadly) than what we have now.  The fact of the matter is it is illegal; until The ONE with his congressional friends changes the law.


So by your logic:
Marijuana is a gateway drug, therefore it should be illegal.
Alcohol is also a gateway drug, likely moreso than marijuana, therefore it should remain legal.

That is not my logic; that is the logic of FedGov; it is what it is.  Defending that wisdom is to go where angels fear to tread.
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me. 
-Ayn Rand

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
-The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
-Milton Friedman

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #201 on: April 10, 2009, 03:30:09 PM »
So you would have constraints and rules.  Interesting.  That seems to differ from the Libertarians; I can't seem to find anything on their website about a plan (like Portugal, for example) to implement while legalizing/decriminalizing drugs (including cannabis).
The same restrictions and constraints that are present with alcohol.

i.e. you have to be a certain age to obtain it, you can't drive under its influence, etc.
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GarMan

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #202 on: April 10, 2009, 03:37:06 PM »
Splitting hairs, my ass. You're acting as if marijuana caused these deaths yet they've NEVER been solely responsible for a death.
The stats are the stats...  As I said before, it's interesting to note that alcohol related deaths for your "SINGLE DRUG DEATHS" (the most important one) are also zero in most of those reports, by the way, for your information, just to point that out.   :clap:

Only when mixed with substances that HAVE been known to cause deaths ALONE. If you have any kind of ability to apply logic, what does that tell you?
That's right.  Marijuana is sooooo safe.  It doesn't cloud judgement or dull your senses.  I think it tells me that even when presented with actual facts, you're going to deny it or constrain the details to fit your agenda, no matter what.  It wasn't the pot that killed him.  It was the windshield and/or the tree that hit his head during the accident. 

And yes, I misspoke earlier when I said "usually alcohol" is what is mixed with marijuana in those deaths. It's usually cocaine. However, while alcohol is zero in many of those links, it IS present in several as well. Marijuana is ZERO for every one. 
Oh...  You m-i-s-s-p-o-k-e earlier.  I see.  Now, it's cocaine.  Right... 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Tarheel

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #203 on: April 10, 2009, 03:39:38 PM »
The same restrictions and constraints that are present with alcohol.

i.e. you have to be a certain age to obtain it, you can't drive under its influence, etc.

Honestly, I think this is a really bad idea with the cumulative effect of adding drugs (or just cannabis) to alcohol coupled to an already ignorant mass of sheeple; but, if you can load the Congress with Libertarians and get a Libertarian elected to the White House then more power to you in getting the laws changed.  You might be in luck with The ONE in office now.

I think if it is ever legalized, the way things are going now we'll have a plan so restrictive and ruled and taxed that it will be more trouble than it's worth to use the stuff.  Maybe you don't think so.

I really don't think we're ever going to see eye-to-eye on this issue.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 03:42:29 PM by Tarheel »
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me. 
-Ayn Rand

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
-The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
-Milton Friedman

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #204 on: April 10, 2009, 03:49:49 PM »
The stats are the stats...  As I said before, it's interesting to note that alcohol related deaths for your "SINGLE DRUG DEATHS" (the most important one) are also zero in most of those reports, by the way, for your information, just to point that out.   :clap:
THIS is splitting hairs. Congratulations, alcohol is less dangerous than heroine and cocaine. Duh shit. It's still MORE dangerous than marijuana. It sill can cause death by itself, where marijuana cannot.
Quote
That's right.  Marijuana is sooooo safe.  It doesn't cloud judgement or dull your senses.  I think it tells me that even when presented with actual facts, you're going to deny it or constrain the details to fit your agenda, no matter what.  It wasn't the pot that killed him.  It was the windshield and/or the tree that hit his head during the accident. 
I knew you'd have a problem with that exercise in logic. As I've pointed out time and time again, if we're talking driving under the influence, alcohol is FAR more often the cause of the accident, and marijuana use by itself is almost nonexistant in these cases. And how can anything you've just said NOT be applied to alcohol (more commonly, at that)?

And what the hell actual facts am I ignoring? You, sir, are the guilty party there, as you obviously still don't grasp these simple truths presented in data I've displayed as well as the data you yourself attempted to use (by manipulating) to state your case.
Quote
Oh...  You m-i-s-s-p-o-k-e earlier.  I see.  Now, it's cocaine.  Right... 
I'm the one that corrected myself there, because I knew any chink in my statements would be inflated to become the focus of the argument. I said marijuana is mixed with other drugs when it causes death and then parenthetically said (usually alcohol). This was incorrect when we're talking medical overdoses. Your data does not contradict my previous statement or my correction. It does not give direct links of which combination of drugs are used. I am by my own accord saying that what I had said earlier was probably not true, nor what I meant to say to begin with. Take that and run with it if you must.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 04:04:24 PM by AUChizad »
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GarMan

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #205 on: April 10, 2009, 05:10:25 PM »
THIS is splitting hairs. Congratulations, alcohol is less dangerous than heroine and cocaine. Duh shit.
How did you arrive at that from what I posted?  Care to 'splain that one?  Oh nevermind... 

It's still MORE dangerous than marijuana. It sill can cause death by itself, where marijuana cannot.
Oh, that makes MJ safer...  I see.  So, when you lock yourself in a plastic bubble and smoke weed, you're invincible, but throw anything else into the mix, it's NEVER pot's fault if you end up dead.  It's always the other stuff whether it be a car, an HIV infected hooker, a knife, a pond, alcohol, cocaine or whatever... 

I knew you'd have a problem with that exercise in logic. As I've pointed out time and time again, if we're talking driving under the influence, alcohol is FAR more often the cause of the accident, and marijuana use by itself is almost nonexistant in these cases. And how can anything you've just said NOT be applied to alcohol (more commonly, at that)?
I cannot disagree, but to stretch and say that pot couldn't be just as dangerous if not more when legalized under these circumstances is a ridiculous stretch with nothing to support it.  Further complicating matters, you don't typically find recreational pot users doing it out in the open or driving to the next party as pot is currently illegal.  Even if you had accurate cannabis consumption numbers, I don't think that you could come to any reasonable conclusion.  I wonder how many DUIs would be issued for those under the influence of pot if it were to be legalized?   I wonder how many deaths would result when combining pot use with other activities, legal and otherwise?  You're suggesting fewer would be the result of direct/alone pot use.  I'm saying bullshit.  It's all half-assed speculation at best, and I would argue that you're just trying to stretch and confine this discussion to only suit your agenda.  If you locked me or anyone else in a plastic bubble with a supply of alcohol, we'd likely pass out long before anyone died, so playing your little game is meaningless in the real world. 

And what the hell actual facts am I ignoring? You, sir, are the guilty party there, as you obviously still don't grasp these simple truths presented in data I've displayed as well as the data you yourself attempted to use (and failed) to state your case.
Stretching, backpeddling and redefining words to suit your agenda doesn't work in the real world.  That is all.   :clap:

I particularly like the way you tried to wiggle out of that claim about teen MJ use by trying to confine your "claim" after the facts were presented to "availability" even though we were clearly talking about physical consumption.  Nice try...   :rofl:

By the way, I think I could argue and agree that cannabis is relatively safe with enough twisting, contortion and constraining of the definitions and conditions around its use.  I just know that it's silly. 

I'm the one that corrected myself there, because I knew any chink in my statements would be inflated to become the focus of the argument. I said marijuana is mixed with other drugs when it causes death and then parenthetically said (usually alcohol). This was incorrect when we're talking medical overdoses. Your data does not contradict my previous statement or my correction. It does not give direct links of which combination of drugs are used. I am by my own accord saying that what I had said earlier was probably not true, nor what I meant to say to begin with. Take that and run with it if you must.
Blame cocaine...  That'll work!   :rofl:
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

GarMan

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #206 on: April 17, 2009, 03:29:31 PM »
BUMP  :rofl:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19980923/

Quote
Pot may hike risk of psychosis, research finds
Even limited use could up chance of serious mental illness by 40 percent


updated 6:59 p.m. ET, Thurs., July 26, 2007
LONDON - Using marijuana seems to increase the chance of becoming psychotic, researchers report in an analysis of past research that reignites the issue of whether pot is dangerous.

The new review suggests that even infrequent use could raise the small but real risk of this serious mental illness by 40 percent.

Doctors have long suspected a connection and say the latest findings underline the need to highlight marijuana’s long-term risks. The research, paid for by the British Health Department, is being published Friday in the medical journal The Lancet.
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

GarMan

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #207 on: April 17, 2009, 03:33:44 PM »
BUMP #2   :rofl:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6732005.stm

Quote
Cannabis hospital admissions rise
Mental health hospital admissions in England due to cannabis have risen by 85% under Labour, figures show.
In 1996-7, there were 510 admissions, rising to 946 in 2005-6, data obtained by shadow health secretary Andrew Lansley revealed.


Over the last five years alone there was a 65% rise, with experts saying the figures were "the tip of the iceberg".

The government said it had been clear on cannabis - it was illegal and should not be used.

Cannabis is the most widely used illegal drug in the country with over 2m regular users.

The figures obtained from Health Minister Rosie Winterton in a written House of Commons answer are for patients admitted to hospital in England because of a mental or behavioural disorder due to the use of cannabis....

Pot is safe...   :clap:
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Tarheel

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #208 on: April 17, 2009, 05:21:30 PM »
BUMP #2   :rofl:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6732005.stm

Pot is safe...   :clap:

England ought to implement the Portuguese drug/cannabis plan.
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The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me. 
-Ayn Rand

The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.
-The Right Honourable Margaret Thatcher

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.
-Milton Friedman

The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'
-Ronald Reagan

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-Thomas Jefferson

Thrilla

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #209 on: April 17, 2009, 05:55:48 PM »
In regards to Bump #1 and #2

Can't argue with it, especially since pot can cause extreme bouts of paranoia, even with a first time user.  However, it must be repeated, long term use that could cause psychosis...but you have to factor in other causes of psychosis, such as stress, diet, and simple genetic makeup of one's psyche.  Recreational use, though?  Nah...you ain't goin' psycho over that, man.

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #210 on: April 17, 2009, 06:05:31 PM »
BUMP #2   :rofl:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6732005.stm

Pot is safe...   :clap:

I would say that number is staistically insignificant any way you look at it when you are looking at a nation of millions. How many thousands were admitted for domestic violence? Should they outlaw marriage?

How about car accidents? Or say lung cancer from ciggies and cigars?

I trust doctors quoted in government sanctioned studies about as much as I now trust barry obama.

Once again, extremely weak sauce.

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AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #211 on: March 14, 2014, 03:44:23 PM »
This thread is fun to read five years later.
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AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #212 on: March 14, 2014, 03:58:08 PM »
I wish GarMan was still around so we could point & laugh at this.

I think a lot of people agree that MJ legalization wouldn't improve the economy.  You don't have to be a genius for that one.  Although, it might stump some folks in between bong hits... 

Well cock-gobbler, I just don't think it would be that significant.  I hear this argument, but what are we really talking about?  The only economic boost would come from the enterprises brought about by the legalization, and anything the government gets would just fund more healthcare and future entitlement programs for deadbeats and Ne'er-do-wells as identified by the latest polling data.  It certainly wouldn't be an economic boom or anything like Carlos Santana suggested last week.  (Another fuggin' musician... good one... but just another burnout musician...)  Let's look at this from a fact based perspective.  How big do we think the black-market/underground industry is?  How big do you think it would be once it becomes legal?  Do we allow promotion of it?  What happens to farming in America?  Do we allow internal production, or do we import?  What are we really going to do? 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/10/colorado-marijuana-tax-revenue_n_4936223.html
Quote
Colorado Recreational Weed Sales Top $14 Million In First Month
Posted: 03/10/2014 6:03 pm EDT Updated: 03/11/2014 11:59 am EDT

During the first month of recreational marijuana sales, Colorado's licensed dispensaries generated a total of more than $14 million, putting about $2 million of tax revenue into state coffers in the process.

The state Department of Revenue released the figures on Monday, which showed how much Colorado has taken in from both medical and recreational marijuana taxes and fees.

The medical marijuana sales for January generated an additional $900,000 in sales tax, for a total tax revenue of $2.9 million for both sides of the state's marijuana dispensary market. Including fees, the figure jumps to $3.5 million.

"The first month of sales for recreational marijuana fell in line with expectations," Barbara Brohl, executive director of the department, said in a statement. "We expect clear revenue patterns will emerge by April and plan to incorporate this data into future forecasts."

The figures represent the tax returns from 59 businesses around Colorado, according to the department.

The recreational marijuana tax numbers come from two levies that state voters approved last November -- a 10 percent special sales tax and a 15 percent excise tax.

Gov. John Hickenlooper (D) recently announced that he expects that the combined sales from both legal medical and recreational marijuana in the state will reach nearly $1 billion in the next fiscal year -- about $600 million of that is projected to come from just recreational sales. The state stands to collect at least $134 million in taxes and fees.

The first week of sales was robust in the state. With only 37 dispensaries open at the time, they collectively brought in roughly $5 million in total sales.

Although the initial crush of retail pot sales has tapered off since January, sales and tax figures are expected to remain steady with more than 150 recreational marijuana dispensaries now licensed, and more added to that list every month.

Though the first $40 million in tax revenue from the industry is flagged for school construction, Hickenlooper has proposed that the state use additional revenue to fund a statewide media campaign to address substance abuse treatment and highlight the risks associated with drug use.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 04:00:36 PM by AUChizad »
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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #213 on: March 14, 2014, 07:52:01 PM »
Mind fuck -

While you were posting in this thread, you had no idea what kind of tenure Coach Gene Chizik would have, and Cam Newton was just some kid that stole a laptop before leaving Florida. 
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The Guy That Knows Nothing of Hyperbole

GarMan

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #214 on: April 27, 2014, 06:41:45 PM »
I wish GarMan was still around so we could point & laugh at this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/10/colorado-marijuana-tax-revenue_n_4936223.html

Numbers must confuse you too.  A million bucks must seem like a lot of money when compared to the financial influence of a janitor or school teacher, but the exaggerations by the pro-pot crowd are fantasies.  Now, let's talk about insignificance.  A state with an annual budget of over $30 billion receives a whopping $2 million in taxes on recreational marijuana sales...  But hey, let's take their $3.5 million stretch by including medical sales and other related fees.  Now, compare it to their $30 billion budget, and it's still insignificant.  We're talking about 1-1.5%.  Yeah...  I'm pointing and laughing...
 :haha:

And, remember your virtually harmless claim...

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25475533/denver-coroner-man-fell-death-after-eating-marijuana
Quote
Denver coroner: Man fell to death after eating marijuana cookies
By John Ingold
The Denver Post
POSTED:   04/02/2014 09:20:26 AM MDT

A college student visiting Denver jumped to his death from a hotel balcony after eating marijuana-infused cookies, according to a coroner's report that marks the first time authorities have publicly linked a death to marijuana since legal sales of recreational cannabis began in Colorado...

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-shot-death-husband-ate-pot-edibles-report-article-1.1758667
Quote
Denver mom shot to death after husband allegedly consumed marijuana edibles, began hallucinating: report
Kristine A. Kirk was on the line with a 911 dispatcher for nearly 15 minutes when she was shot in the head late Monday night, NBC reported. The 44-year-old mother of three had reportedly told police that her husband was 'talking about the end of the world.’
BY NINA GOLGOWSKI   
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Published: Wednesday, April 16, 2014, 4:35 PM Updated: Thursday, April 17, 2014, 9:16 AM

A Denver woman was allegedly shot to death by her own husband while on the phone with police after she reportedly said he consumed marijuana edibles and began hallucinating...

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/marijuana-linked-to-heart-problems-1.7836745
Quote
Marijuana linked to heart problems
Originally published: April 26, 2014 9:07 PM
Updated: April 26, 2014 9:48 PM
By DELTHIA RICKS

Proponents of legalizing marijuana have long stood by claims of the plant's overall safety, but new research raises questions about pot's impact on the cardiovascular system and brain.

Writing this past week in the Journal of the American Heart Association, medical scientists in France concluded that recreational marijuana use may result in cardiovascular-related complications, and possibly even death, among young and middle-aged adults...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/04/15/marijuana-brain-changes/7749309/
Quote
Casual marijuana use linked to brain changes
Karen Weintraub, Special for USA TODAY 6:46 p.m. EDT April 15, 2014
A new study links casual marijuana use with significant changes to parts of the brain.

Using marijuana a few times a week is enough to physically alter critical brain structures, according to a new study published Tuesday in The Journal of Neuroscience.

"Just casual use appears to create changes in the brain in areas you don't want to change," said Hans Breiter, a psychiatrist and mathematician at the Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago, who led the new study.

There is actually very little research on the potential benefits and downsides of casual marijuana smoking — fewer than four times a week on average.

In his study, done in collaboration with researchers at Harvard University, scientists looked at the brains of 20 relatively light marijuana users and 20 people who did not use it at all. All 40 were college students in the Boston area...

And, if Darwin's culling of the herd wasn't enough, we have more.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25648201/explosion-small-fire-at-jeffco-townhome
Quote
Two children caught in marijuana oil explosion
By Tom McGhee
The Denver Post
POSTED:   04/27/2014 08:42:14 AM MDT12 COMMENTS| UPDATED:   ABOUT 5 HOURS AGO

Two small children were in a Jefferson County townhouse that exploded while their parents were making a marijuana concentrate, Sheriff's spokesman Mark Techmeyer said Sunday.

Neither child, a three-year-old and an eight-month-old, nor their mother, were hurt in the explosion Saturday night or the fire it created...

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_25622569/small-explosion-at-sw-denver-grow-house
Quote
Small explosion at marijuana grow house in SW Denver; 3 injured
By Kate Gibbons
The Denver Post
POSTED:   04/23/2014 01:41:09 PM MDT40 COMMENTS| UPDATED:   4 DAYS AGO

Three people were injured Wednesday when a small explosion erupted at a marijuana growing operation in southwest Denver...

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2013/04/09/fire-burns-northern-colorado-pot-growing-operation/
Quote
Fire Burns Northern Colorado Pot-Growing Operation
April 9, 2013 5:17 PM

FORT COLLINS, Colo. (AP) – Sheriff’s officials say a fire has destroyed about 60 marijuana plants in a garage being used to grow pot in Larimer County...

http://adage.com/article/media/colorado-s-drive-high-a-dui-poke-fun-pot-smokers/292027/
Quote
Watch the Pot: 'Drive High, Get a DUI' Ads Chide Newly Legal Weed Smokers
Colorado Rolls Out PSAs to Keep Stoners in the Passenger Seat

By Michael Sebastian. Published on March 06, 2014.

I wonder how much the state has had to spend on refining DUI laws, training law enforcement and producing these PSAs and other related efforts. 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

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Vandy Vol

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #215 on: April 27, 2014, 09:43:28 PM »
I wonder how much the state has had to spend on refining DUI laws, training law enforcement and producing these PSAs and other related efforts.

They shouldn't have had to spend any money refining DUI laws or training law enforcement.  To my knowledge, most states have a "catch all" clause for DUIs not involving alcohol.  They even allow for the officer to arrest a person for DUI merely based on indicators of impairment, rather than having to bring in a new blood test and train law enforcement.

And you always have to consider that DUIs are money makers for courts.  So while there are costs involved with arrests and prosecution, there is also income.
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"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." - Dean Martin

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #216 on: August 05, 2014, 03:28:12 PM »
Bump.

Driving high (while arguably not as 'bad' as driving drunk) would cause a cumulative worsening of the problem of DUI.  Comparing it to DUI of alcohol is being irrational.

I wonder how much the state has had to spend on refining DUI laws, training law enforcement and producing these PSAs and other related efforts.

LOL.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/08/05/since-marijuana-legalization-highway-fatalities-in-colorado-are-at-near-historic-lows/

Quote
Since marijuana legalization, highway fatalities in Colorado are at near-historic lows

By Radley Balko August 5 at 11:29 AM 

Since Colorado voters legalized pot in 2012, prohibition supporters have warned that recreational marijuana will lead to a scourge of “drugged divers” on the state’s roads. They often point out that when the state legalized medical marijuana in 2001, there was a surge in drivers found to have smoked pot. They also point to studies showing that in other states that have legalized pot for medical purposes, we’ve seen an increase in the number of drivers testing positive for the drug who were involved in fatal car accidents. The anti-pot group SAM recently pointed out that even before the first legal pot store opened in Washington state, the number of drivers in that state testing positive for pot jumped by a third.

The problem with these criticisms is that we can test only for the presence of marijuana metabolites, not for inebriation. Metabolites can linger in the body for days after the drug’s effects wear off — sometimes even for weeks. Because we all metabolize drugs differently (and at different times and under different conditions), all that a positive test tells us is that the driver has smoked pot at some point in the past few days or weeks.

It makes sense that loosening restrictions on pot would result in a higher percentage of drivers involved in fatal traffic accidents having smoked the drug at some point over the past few days or weeks. You’d also expect to find that a higher percentage of churchgoers, good Samaritans and soup kitchen volunteers would have pot in their system. You’d expect a similar result among any large sampling of people. This doesn’t necessarily mean that marijuana caused or was even a contributing factor to accidents, traffic violations or fatalities.

This isn’t an argument that pot wasn’t a factor in at least some of those accidents, either. But that’s precisely the point. A post-accident test for marijuana metabolites doesn’t tell us much at all about whether pot contributed to the accident.

Since the new Colorado law took effect in January, the “drugged driver” panic has only intensified. I’ve already written about one dubious example, in which the Colorado Highway Patrol and some local and national media perpetuated a story that a driver was high on pot when he slammed into a couple of police cars parked on an interstate exit ramp. While the driver did have some pot in his system, his blood-alcohol level was off the charts and was far more likely the cause of the accident. In my colleague Marc Fisher’s recent dispatch from Colorado, law enforcement officials there and in bordering states warned that they’re seeing more drugged drivers. Congress recently held hearings on the matter, complete with dire predictions such as “We are going to have a lot more people stoned on the highway and there will be consequences,” from Rep. John Mica (R-Fla.). Some have called for a zero tolerance policy — if you’re driving with any trace of pot in your system, you’re guilty of a DWI. That would effectively ban anyone who smokes pot from driving for up to a couple of weeks after their last joint, including people who legitimately use the drug for medical reasons.

It seems to me that the best way to gauge the effect legalization has had on the roadways is to look at what has happened on the roads since legalization took effect. Here’s a month-by-month comparison of highway fatalities in Colorado through the first seven months of this year and last year. For a more thorough comparison, I’ve also included the highest fatality figures for each month since 2002, the lowest for each month since 2002 and the average for each month since 2002.


Raw data from the Colorado Dept. of Transportation
 
As you can see, roadway fatalities this year are down from last year, and down from the 13-year average. Of the seven months so far this year, five months saw a lower fatality figure this year than last, two months saw a slightly higher figure this year, and in one month the two figures were equal. If we add up the total fatalities from January through July, it looks like this:


Raw data from the Colorado Dept. of Transportation

Here, the “high” bar (pardon the pun) is what you get when you add the worst January since 2002 to the worst February, to the worst March, and so on. The “low” bar is the sum total of the safest January, February, etc., since 2002. What’s notable here is that the totals so far in 2014 are closer to the safest composite year since 2002 than to the average year since 2002. I should also add here that these are total fatalities. If we were to calculate these figures as a rate — say, miles driven per fatality — the drop would be starker, both for this year and since Colorado legalized medical marijuana in 2001. While the number of miles Americans drive annually has leveled off nationally since the mid-2000s, the number of total miles traveled continues to go up in Colorado. If we were to measure by rate, then, the state would be at lows unseen in decades.

The figures are similar in states that have legalized medical marijuana. While some studies have shown that the number of drivers involved in fatal collisions who test positive for marijuana has steadily increased as pot has become more available, other studies have shown that overall traffic fatalities in those states have dropped. Again, because the pot tests only measure for recent pot use, not inebriation, there’s nothing inconsistent about those results.

Of course, the continuing drop in roadway fatalities, in Colorado and elsewhere, is due to a variety of factors, such as better-built cars and trucks, improved safety features and better road engineering. These figures in and of themselves only indicate that the roads are getting safer; they don’t suggest that pot had anything to do with it. We’re also only seven months in. Maybe these figures will change. Finally, it’s also possible that if it weren’t for legal pot, the 2014 figures would be even lower. There’s no real way to know that. We can only look at the data available. But you can bet that if fatalities were up this year, prohibition supporters would be blaming it on legal marijuana. (Interestingly, though road fatalities have generally been falling in Colorado for a long time, 2013 actually saw a slight increase from 2012. So fatalities are down the year after legalization, after having gone up the year before.)

That said, some researchers have gone so far as to suggest that better access to pot is making the roads safer, at least marginally. The theory is that people are substituting pot for alcohol, and pot causes less driver impairment than booze. I’d need to see more studies before I’d be ready to endorse that theory. For example, there’s also some research contradicting the theory that drinkers are ready to substitute pot for alcohol.

But the data are far more supportive of that than of the claims that stoned drivers are menacing Colorado’s roadways.
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Saniflush

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #217 on: August 05, 2014, 03:36:37 PM »
Have any data from Washington?
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."

AUChizad

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #218 on: August 05, 2014, 04:24:53 PM »
Have any data from Washington?
Do you?
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Saniflush

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Re: This Ought to Make the Libertarians Happy
« Reply #219 on: August 06, 2014, 07:28:27 AM »
Do you?
No.  I was asking.  I figured someone who beats the benefits of pot drum as much as you do would have that.

I personally like looking at multiple sets of data whether it supports what I think or not.  That's how new learning takes place, but since you seem to feel threatened by my asking we can just make the blanket statement that pot makes it safer to drive.

Correlation is not causation, but since Washington is the only other state who has it legalized I thought that would be a good contrast and compare item.  I mean surely someone who is bringing up quotes from 5 years ago would like to look deeply at the subject matter?
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 10:30:51 AM by AUChizad »
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"Hey my friends are the ones that wanted to eat at that shitty hole in the wall that only served bread and wine.  What kind of brick and mud business model is that.  Stick to the cart if that's all you're going to serve.  Then that dude came in with like 12 other people, and some of them weren't even wearing shoes, and the restaurant sat them right across from us. It was gross, and they were all stinky and dirty.  Then dude starts talking about eating his body and drinking his blood...I almost lost it.  That's the last supper I'll ever have there, and I hope he dies a horrible death."