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Interesting Statistics

Interesting Statistics
« on: June 10, 2011, 09:08:29 AM »
From the 2008 election:

Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29

Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 McCain: 2.1
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The Guy That Knows Nothing of Hyperbole

GH2001

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2011, 09:13:09 AM »
From the 2008 election:

Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29

Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000

Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 McCain: 2.1

You just hate him because he is black. These facts are skewed. They mean nothing.

 :sarcasm:
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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2011, 09:23:50 AM »
You just hate him because he is black. These facts are skewed. They mean nothing.

 :sarcasm:

Actually, they don't.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/government/a/election_stats.htm

 :facepalm: 

I'm definitely not  #winning with this post.
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The Guy That Knows Nothing of Hyperbole

GH2001

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2011, 09:47:10 AM »
Actually, they don't.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/government/a/election_stats.htm

 :facepalm: 

I'm definitely not  #winning with this post.

The facts may not be accurate but the general trend of them is. Especially that last one. I think the murder rate in Chicago, DC, NYC and LA are SLIGHTLY higher than Kansas,  Alabama, Nebraska and Texas.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2011, 09:26:22 PM »
Well, even if the facts are slightly true, there's still one problem.

Murder = felony.  Felony = can't vote (in most instances).

So I'm not sure what the murder statistics would have to do with voting or election results.  Or crime in general, considering that 48 states don't allow current inmates to vote.

Of course, there are always those unsolved murders.  But unsolved murders make up about 39% of homicides, not to mention that many of those were probably committed by convicted felons, so those people are in the minority and probably can't vote anyways due to other convictions and/or current incarceration for those convictions.  Felons who have regained their voting rights could vote, but they're far and few in between; there's about a 40% recidivism rate nationwide for felons.  I don't see much of an actual correlation.

And as an aside, the largest cities typically don't have the highest murder rates in the nation (higher than the Mayberries of the country, yes, but not the highest).  I think Philadelphia is the only city with a population of over one million that typically makes it into the top 10.  A few years ago, New York City was #50 out of a list of 75 cities with populations of 250,000 or more.
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GarMan

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2011, 10:13:55 AM »
Well, even if the facts are slightly true, there's still one problem.

Murder = felony.  Felony = can't vote (in most instances).

So I'm not sure what the murder statistics would have to do with voting or election results.  Or crime in general, considering that 48 states don't allow current inmates to vote.

Of course, there are always those unsolved murders.  But unsolved murders make up about 39% of homicides, not to mention that many of those were probably committed by convicted felons, so those people are in the minority and probably can't vote anyways due to other convictions and/or current incarceration for those convictions.  Felons who have regained their voting rights could vote, but they're far and few in between; there's about a 40% recidivism rate nationwide for felons.  I don't see much of an actual correlation.

And as an aside, the largest cities typically don't have the highest murder rates in the nation (higher than the Mayberries of the country, yes, but not the highest).  I think Philadelphia is the only city with a population of over one million that typically makes it into the top 10.  A few years ago, New York City was #50 out of a list of 75 cities with populations of 250,000 or more. 

Of course, we all know that individuals should be responsible for their own actions, but a community (or village of morons) that produces or fosters an excessive number of felons will likely lack the standards or morals that are beneficial to a society.  The correlations are there, and while they may not meet your constrained definition of highest, they do have elevated incidences of irresponsible behavior.  Appealing to that irresponsible element may help you win the next popularity contest or election...
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

GH2001

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2011, 11:24:51 AM »
Of course, we all know that individuals should be responsible for their own actions, but a community (or village of morons) that produces or fosters an excessive number of felons will likely lack the standards or morals that are beneficial to a society.  The correlations are there, and while they may not meet your constrained definition of highest, they do have elevated incidences of irresponsible behavior.  Appealing to that irresponsible element may help you win the next popularity contest or election...

Thanks for saving me from having to write all that.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2011, 02:27:01 PM »
Of course, we all know that individuals should be responsible for their own actions, but a community (or village of morons) that produces or fosters an excessive number of felons will likely lack the standards or morals that are beneficial to a society.  The correlations are there, and while they may not meet your constrained definition of highest, they do have elevated incidences of irresponsible behavior.  Appealing to that irresponsible element may help you win the next popularity contest or election...

If I'm understanding you correctly, then you're implying that a city or area with a high crime rate must be populated by morally reprehensible people.  I think it's important to point out that a "high" murder rate is 52 per 100,000 people.  Just because an area has a higher crime rate does not mean that a significant portion of that community is morally reprehensible.  It's the equivalent of saying that if five of your neighbors have been convicted of a crime, then you must be morally repugnant as well simply because you live in the same area as them.

Even if the majority of the people in these communities are morally lacking, then they're going to be arrested for performing illegal acts.  All of them?  No, but if they lack moral standards as you claim, then a significant portion of them will be.  You can't have your cake by claiming that people who live in these areas are criminally minded/morally reprehensible, yet also eat your cake by claiming that these criminals who are likely incarcerated are affecting the vote.  Felony or not, you can't vote while in jail in 48 states.
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Snaggletiger

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2011, 02:33:08 PM »
I think the entire Auburn football team is a group of morally reprehensible thugs. 
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GarMan

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2011, 03:13:02 PM »
If I'm understanding you correctly, then you're implying that a city or area with a high crime rate must be populated by morally reprehensible people.  I think it's important to point out that a "high" murder rate is 52 per 100,000 people.  Just because an area has a higher crime rate does not mean that a significant portion of that community is morally reprehensible.  It's the equivalent of saying that if five of your neighbors have been convicted of a crime, then you must be morally repugnant as well simply because you live in the same area as them.

Whether you like it or not, higher crime rates in a given area is indicative of the quality of residents in that area.  I would never move my family into or stay in a neighborhood with high crime rates.  I am responsible enough to act accordingly, and I expect similar of others.  Others who are not responsible enough to act similarly are also indicative of their lack of standards. 

Even if the majority of the people in these communities are morally lacking, then they're going to be arrested for performing illegal acts.  All of them?  No, but if they lack moral standards as you claim, then a significant portion of them will be.  You can't have your cake by claiming that people who live in these areas are criminally minded/morally reprehensible, yet also eat your cake by claiming that these criminals who are likely incarcerated are affecting the vote.  Felony or not, you can't vote while in jail in 48 states.

Nobody is making those leaps.  Nobody is suggsting that criminals who may not be allowed to vote would affect the vote.  A community that fosters an excessive number of felons will likely lack the standards or morals that are beneficial to a society.  That does not imply that they're all criminally minded or morally reprehensible.  They might just lack those standards or values best suited for a peaceful, law-abiding society that would ordinarily be passed from generation to generation. 
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Vandy Vol

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2011, 04:04:55 PM »
Whether you like it or not, higher crime rates in a given area is indicative of the quality of residents in that area.  I would never move my family into or stay in a neighborhood with high crime rates.  I am responsible enough to act accordingly, and I expect similar of others.  Others who are not responsible enough to act similarly are also indicative of their lack of standards.

People live in certain neighborhoods due to financial constraints.  That's not always the case, but I would imagine that it happens more often than someone moving to a neighborhood just because they want to be a criminal or otherwise condone criminal behavior.  Yes, it's a bad neighborhood, but if I can't afford the $500 rent in Homewood, then I'm going to take the $250 rent in Ensley.  Does it mean I approve of the crime that goes on around me, or that I approve of what my neighbors choose to do with their lives?  Of course not.  I just think that it's a wee bit of an exaggeration to assume that most people live in a community with high crime rates simply because they themselves are morally repugnant or are more apt to commit crimes.

Nobody is making those leaps.  Nobody is suggsting that criminals who may not be allowed to vote would affect the vote.  A community that fosters an excessive number of felons will likely lack the standards or morals that are beneficial to a society.  That does not imply that they're all criminally minded or morally reprehensible.  They might just lack those standards or values best suited for a peaceful, law-abiding society that would ordinarily be passed from generation to generation.

You make it sound as if these "communities" are having Felon's Day barbecues and holding classes on how to properly commit a B&E.  Many of these "communities" are large cities that aren't actively trying to foster anything criminal.  When you have high populations of people, and when downtown areas of these cities have higher priced living arrangements and entertainment districts, criminals will flock to these areas for opportunity.  Just because a city has a higher crime rate doesn't mean that the majority of its residents lack moral standards; there are too many other factors at play which have greater effects.
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GarMan

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2011, 04:54:47 PM »
People live in certain neighborhoods due to financial constraints.  That's not always the case, but I would imagine that it happens more often than someone moving to a neighborhood just because they want to be a criminal or otherwise condone criminal behavior.  Yes, it's a bad neighborhood, but if I can't afford the $500 rent in Homewood, then I'm going to take the $250 rent in Ensley.  Does it mean I approve of the crime that goes on around me, or that I approve of what my neighbors choose to do with their lives?  Of course not.  I just think that it's a wee bit of an exaggeration to assume that most people live in a community with high crime rates simply because they themselves are morally repugnant or are more apt to commit crimes.

For the life of me, I don't know how you arrived at any of that, but all of this is actually related to a person's individual standards and values.  If you can't afford the rent or mortgage in a safer neighborhood with your current job, and you're unwilling to find one with better pay or take a second job to achieve your goals, you're likely contributing to the problem. 

You make it sound as if these "communities" are having Felon's Day barbecues and holding classes on how to properly commit a B&E.  Many of these "communities" are large cities that aren't actively trying to foster anything criminal.  When you have high populations of people, and when downtown areas of these cities have higher priced living arrangements and entertainment districts, criminals will flock to these areas for opportunity.
 
Nonsense...   

Just because a city has a higher crime rate doesn't mean that the majority of its residents lack moral standards; there are too many other factors at play which have greater effects.

It must be those damn law-abiding citizens breaking all the laws, committing rape and murder.  DAMN THEM!!!
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

GH2001

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2011, 05:13:56 PM »
Bait set.....check
Initiate sparring....check
Entice VandyVol and GarMan to partake....check
All out war......almost

I love it when you two argue.  :thumsup:
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GarMan

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2011, 05:27:05 PM »
 :vn:
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Vandy Vol

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2011, 05:42:54 PM »
For the life of me, I don't know how you arrived at any of that, but all of this is actually related to a person's individual standards and values.  If you can't afford the rent or mortgage in a safer neighborhood with your current job, and you're unwilling to find one with better pay or take a second job to achieve your goals, you're likely contributing to the problem.

You assume that people are unwilling to find a job, and so your perfect solution is for them to find a job.  Well, in this type of economy, your solution isn't very feasible.  Aside from that, there are educational barriers and societal barriers that can be too much for some people to overcome.  We'd all like to live the American dream, and those of us arguing on internet forums have probably been given various opportunities to do so or else we wouldn't be here, but not everyone has been given those opportunities.  Not everyone can find those opportunities, or for that matter, make those opportunities.  It's easy for us to look down from our high horses and tell people to get better jobs so that they can move to Bel Air.  It's not always as easy or as simple as it sounds.
 
It must be those damn law-abiding citizens breaking all the laws, committing rape and murder.  DAMN THEM!!!

When the city with the highest murder rate has an annual average of 50 murders per 100,000 people, I think it's pretty clear that a majority of the "community" is not out raping and pillaging.  We talk of "high" murder rates, but when you look at the statistics that qualify as being "high" compared to other cities, it's pretty clear that there aren't entire geographical areas comprised of sadistic murderers, twisted pedophiles, and insatiable thieves.  We're not talking about Thunderdome here.  We're talking about places like St. Louis, Philadelphia, Birmingham...places where normal, sane, law-abiding citizens do live.  Again, just because an area has a high crime rate doesn't mean that all of the residents condone or commit criminal behavior.
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Vandy Vol

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2011, 05:45:06 PM »
Bait set.....check
Initiate sparring....check
Entice VandyVol and GarMan to partake....check
All out war......almost

I love it when you two argue.  :thumsup:

I love it when you whisper my name in the dark and blow softly in my ear.
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GarMan

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2011, 10:31:26 AM »
You assume that people are unwilling to find a job, and so your perfect solution is for them to find a job.  Well, in this type of economy, your solution isn't very feasible.  Aside from that, there are educational barriers and societal barriers that can be too much for some people to overcome.  We'd all like to live the American dream, and those of us arguing on internet forums have probably been given various opportunities to do so or else we wouldn't be here, but not everyone has been given those opportunities.  Not everyone can find those opportunities, or for that matter, make those opportunities.  It's easy for us to look down from our high horses and tell people to get better jobs so that they can move to Bel Air.  It's not always as easy or as simple as it sounds.

HorseSqueeze...  All of it...  This is nothing more than excusing mediocrity by establishing these poor, helpless people as victims of society.  The biggest barrier that most of America's poor experiences is themselves.  Do you know why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer every year?  It's because they both continue doing what they know best.  The rich continue to seek out opportunities to improve themselves and their economic situation taking action when appropriate, while the vast majority of our poor continue to make bad decisions, overspend and generally do a lot of stupid things.  They are victims of their own demise. 
 
When the city with the highest murder rate has an annual average of 50 murders per 100,000 people, I think it's pretty clear that a majority of the "community" is not out raping and pillaging.  We talk of "high" murder rates, but when you look at the statistics that qualify as being "high" compared to other cities, it's pretty clear that there aren't entire geographical areas comprised of sadistic murderers, twisted pedophiles, and insatiable thieves.  We're not talking about Thunderdome here.  We're talking about places like St. Louis, Philadelphia, Birmingham...places where normal, sane, law-abiding citizens do live.  Again, just because an area has a high crime rate doesn't mean that all of the residents condone or commit criminal behavior.

I don't think that anyone really argued the hypothetical straw tiger that you're whining about, but you can continue...  :dead:
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

GH2001

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  • I'm a Miller guy. Always been. Since I was like, 8
Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2011, 11:18:48 AM »
I love it when you whisper my name in the dark and blow softly in my ear.

Nothing but love VV:thumsup:

I think you and GarMan are best friends merely putting on a show for us.
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GarMan

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2011, 11:39:24 AM »
I think you and GarMan are best friends merely putting on a show for us. 

I'm not gonna lie...  He can toss a mean salad.
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My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Vandy Vol

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Re: Interesting Statistics
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2011, 12:23:26 PM »
HorseSqueeze...  All of it...  This is nothing more than excusing mediocrity by establishing these poor, helpless people as victims of society.  The biggest barrier that most of America's poor experiences is themselves.  Do you know why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer every year?  It's because they both continue doing what they know best.  The rich continue to seek out opportunities to improve themselves and their economic situation taking action when appropriate, while the vast majority of our poor continue to make bad decisions, overspend and generally do a lot of stupid things.  They are victims of their own demise.

The rich get richer because they seek out opportunities?  Drug themselves from the muck and became triumphant due to their tenacity and hard work? Riiight...let's just look at America's examples of some of the richest people who "made it" from their "good decisions" and "hard work:"

Bill Gates - Son of a lawyer and bank board director.  He was sent to an exclusive preparatory school in Seattle.  Must have been hard work to convince his rich parents to do that.  Then he went to Harvard.  I'm sure it was a hard, long haul for him to go from a ritzy preparatory school to Harvard.  Definitely drug himself out of that shitty situation.

Warren Buffett - His father was a businessman and later member of Congress.  After school, he was employed by his daddy's business.  I'm sure that took some hard work and great decisions.

Michael Bloomberg - Son of a real estate agent.  Nothing spectacular, right?  Except when you look at the fact that he grew up in Brighton, Massachusetts, where the median home price is $495,000 and the cost of living is 30% higher than the national average.  His hard work took him from rich to richer.  Must have been a struggle.

Larry Page - Son of two computer science professors at Michigan State.  Went to Stanford.  He worked hard at becoming a computer genius; it obviously had nothing to do with his parents' income and knowledge of computers that they imparted on him from an early age.

Of course, the list goes on and on, but you get the point.  Many of the richest people didn't necessarily grow up in the lap of luxury, so to speak, but the vast majority of them at least grew up in comfortable situations.  I'm not stating that, in order to succeed in life, you have to start from financially comfortable beginnings, but it makes it much, much easier.  And, of course, I realize that these are extreme examples, but it's relatively representative of generally stagnant socioeconomic classes.

Take the educational system as a prime example.  If you grow up in a decent area, you get a decent education.  You have access to information and supplies due to your decent school.  You are placed into a better situation from which to advance.  That is, if your family can afford to live in a decent area.  What if you can't?  Then you don't go to a decent school.  We are encouraged to confine our attention to the child and to dwell on all his alleged defects, which are also allegedly shared by his parents due to their supposed unwillingness to try to succeed.  Labeling lower class children and families as lazy becomes a generalized explanation for the educational disaster area known as the inner-city school.

To me, it's a chicken and the egg debate.  Are they poor because they're stupid and lazy, or are they stupid and lazy because they're poor?  But then, what about the poor people who aren't lazy, but there's no chance of advancement for them?  They don't have the education or practical knowledge to invent something.  They don't have the education to advance to a management position, assuming that their line of work even has such a position available.  And in this economy, they may not even have a job or the chance to look for a "better" job.

I agree that there are tons of simply lazy people out there.  In fact, I'll even go as far as to say that most poor people have probably gotten themselves into that situation by only taking what comes easily to them and not trying for anything more.  But to suggest that, for those of you who aren't lazy, all you need to do to earn more money is get off your ass and get a better job?  I think that this "solution" fails to address a lot of problems and a lot of real barriers that prevent many people from just strolling into a new economic class.
 
I don't think that anyone really argued the hypothetical straw tiger that you're whining about, but you can continue...  :dead:

If no one made the argument that areas with high crime rates are mostly populated with morally reprehensible and generally irresponsible people, then my point stands as correct:  a high crime rate in an area has virtually no correlation to voting results in that area.
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"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." - Dean Martin