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Author Topic: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "  (Read 2449 times)

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GarMan

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #300 on: March 18, 2010, 03:58:22 PM »
My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

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Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

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Vandy Vol

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #301 on: March 18, 2010, 10:08:53 PM »
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 01:45:11 AM by Vandy Vol »
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GarMan

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #302 on: March 19, 2010, 12:11:43 AM »
More pissing...

Except for the study I submitted that shows no mass disruption in other countries' militaries due to open homosexuality.  And, of course, the testimony of individuals on this forum who stated that they saw no such disruption when individuals were open in their units.  You can disprove those sources if you'd like, but pretending like they've never been referenced is patently false.
Here's a reference...
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/18/us.gays.military.srebrenica/index.html?hpt=T2
Quote
"As a result, they declared a peace dividend and made a conscious effort to socialize their military," he said. "That includes the unionization of their militaries. It includes open homosexuality demonstrated in a series of other activities, with a focus on peacekeeping operations, because they did not believe the Germans were going to attack again or the Soviets were coming back.

"That led to a force that was ill-equipped to go to war. The case in point that I'm referring to is when the Dutch were required to defend Srebrenica against the Serbs. The battalion was under-strength, poorly led, and the Serbs came into town, handcuffed the soldiers to the telephone poles, marched the Muslims off and executed them," Sheehan said.

"That was the largest massacre in Europe since World War II."
Note the phrases "socialize their military" and "unionization of their militaries".  It's easy to play games in 50,000 foot diatribes without adequately considering the longer term consequences of such actions.  But, I'm sure that he's just another bigot...  A racist, white Republican...  Go ahead and attack him now.  That seems to be the modus operandi with you people.  

I never said it did.  I said that the Constitution refers to "the right to vote."  Unless the Constitution is referring to something that doesn't exist, then the right to vote exists.

Of course the Constitution does not protect the right of all citizens to vote...

So you see, even the Court in the decision...

Blah, blah, blah...  
They call that backpedaling.  

There is a difference between a homosexual who is screened and determined to be disease free, and a pedophile who has molested a child previously, and thus does not pass "screening."  I mean, afterall, we wouldn't know they were a pedophile unless they had previously been convicted of child molestation, statutory rape or something similar.  In one situation, you've got a person who poses no current medical risk and is going to be screened just like everyone else to prevent any medical risks from arising.  In the other situation, you have a pedophile who has already done wrong, and thus there is a legitimate reason for restricting their ability to teach kids.  It's no different than a convicted felon being stripped of the ability to purchase a gun.

But hey, way to fabricate a strawman argument about me supporting pedophiles and cross dressers.  You have a knack for utilizing tactics that you incorrectly call me out on.
That's absolutely ridiculous.  Didn't you throw this at me a few posts ago?

Quote
When you deny a particular group of people of something, it typically becomes a civil rights issue.  We denied blacks and women voting rights because they were unpopular and/or suppressed groups at the time.  There was no logical or legitimate reason to this; it was simply done because they lacked the political power to change that for years.  Our judicial history has shown that if a right or privilege is going to be denied to anyone, much less an entire sub-group, there must be a legitimate reason behind it.  If you were to allow the majority to suppress whatever it wanted simply because they were the majority, then you would wind up with the English system of oppression from which our founding fathers fled.
If you truly believe what you have articulated, then you should have no problem extending or protecting these "rights" for cross-dressers, pedophiles, transgenders and others.  You're jumping to another half-assed assumption by suggesting a pedophile has victimized a child, and defending your position based on that constraint.  A pedophile does not have to act in order to be characterized as a pedophile.  That's ridiculous.  Of course, I agree with your conviction scenario.  
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 12:14:35 AM by GarMan »
My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Vandy Vol

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #303 on: March 19, 2010, 02:22:28 AM »
Here's a reference...
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/03/18/us.gays.military.srebrenica/index.html?hpt=T2Note the phrases "socialize their military" and "unionization of their militaries".

You cite an article that states that one step they took was to allow homosexuals to serve in the military?  Did you happen to notice that the article also states that they took to peacekeeping operations, because they did not believe the Germans were going to attack again?  Call me foolish, but the fact that their ass got stomped might be because they incorrectly believed that the Germans wouldn't attack, which resulted in them not being prepared for the attack.  Let's not forget that your own article states the following:

Quote
. . . the gay ban was suspended during the Gulf War with no apparent detrimental impact on military readiness.

So, let's see here.  During the Gulf War, the gay ban was lifted and no detrimental impact was noted.  During the Bosnian massacre, the gay ban was lifted, they took to peacekeeping operations and they weren't expecting the Germans to attack.  There is a common denominator in both instances, yet their failure only occurred during one instance.  A logical conclusion would be that the common denominator was not the cause of failure, but that the newly introduced factors were.  Afterall, if the common denominator in both instances was the reason that they failed, then they would have failed in both instances.  However, they didn't.

They call that backpedaling.

Backpedaling?  Go back and read my other posts.  Please tell me where I ever stated that the Constitution enforces the right to vote.  I have repeatedly stated that the Constitution references the right to vote.  And if you've ever bothered to read the text of the Constitution, you'd realize that it expressly uses the phrase "the right to vote" (excluding the prepositional phrase that operates as an adjective).  My point has consistently been that the Constitution refers to the right.  Either the Constitution refers to something that doesn't exist, or the right to vote does exist.

And although you conveniently skipped over the portions of my response which deal with the case that you cited, it is very clear that the Supreme Court agrees with me that a right does exist.  So not only did you cite to a case which proved my point, but you then ignored the fact that I pointed this out.

 :thumsup:

That's absolutely ridiculous.  Didn't you throw this at me a few posts ago?

Nope.  At one point I stated that I have no clue as to whether a pedophile's affinity toward children is genetic or not.  I also mentioned pedophiles while listing off groups of people to make a point, but I did not state anything about pedophiles in particular.  I've never made a statement that pedophiles should be able to teach, serve in the military or any other activity.  You're conjuring statements out of thin air, just like you did with the accusation that I was back pedaling from "my" statement that the right to vote is enforced in the Constitution, when I had merely stated that it was referred to in the Constitution.  I think this book may be of assistance to you:



If you truly believe what you have articulated, then you should have no problem extending or protecting these "rights" for cross-dressers, pedophiles, transgenders and others.

Have I ever stated that cross dressers should not be able to join the military, or that they should not be able to announce openly that they are cross dressers?  Have I said anything like that about transgenders?  Have I said anything like that about pedophiles?

You make assumptions that I'm only applying this to homosexuals.  Your assumptions are wrong.  Unless you can point to a legitimate reason for any subgroup of people to not be in the military, then they can not be banned.  Unless you can point to a legitimate reason for disallowing them to voice their lifestyle preferences, then they can not be silenced.  This goes for every group:  homosexuals, heterosexuals, Satanists, Christians, racists, sexists, pedophiles, necrophiliacs, minorities, etc.  You can't legally deny a right or a privilege without a legitimate reason.  And before you misread that statement as well, let me make it very clear:  I am not stating that all or any of those groups should be in the military.  I am simply stating that before you ban any group, you must have a legitimate reason.

You're jumping to another half-assed assumption by suggesting a pedophile has victimized a child, and defending your position based on that constraint.  A pedophile does not have to act in order to be characterized as a pedophile.  That's ridiculous.  Of course, I agree with your conviction scenario.  

How do you know them to be a pedophile unless they've acted on their desires?  I seriously doubt they're going to check "pedophile" on a military entrance exam.  My point was that we're not able to classify someone as a pedophile unless you know they've affected a child, and you're likely not going to know that they've done something to a child until they've been charged and/or convicted with child molestation, statutory rape, child pornography or something similar.  Therefore, the classification of a person as a pedophile is not going to be realized until the crime is committed.
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GarMan

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #304 on: March 19, 2010, 11:09:37 AM »
You cite an article that states that one step they took was to allow homosexuals to serve in the military?  Did you happen to notice that the article also states that they took to peacekeeping operations, because they did not believe the Germans were going to attack again?  Call me foolish, but the fact that their ass got stomped might be because they incorrectly believed that the Germans wouldn't attack, which resulted in them not being prepared for the attack. 
So, you refute the General's position.  He's wrong, and you're right.  His real-world experience must be nothing compared to your vast military experience.  I see... 

Let's not forget that your own article states the following: 
<snip>
So, let's see here.  During the Gulf War, the gay ban was lifted and no detrimental impact was noted.  During the Bosnian massacre, the gay ban was lifted, they took to peacekeeping operations and they weren't expecting the Germans to attack.  There is a common denominator in both instances, yet their failure only occurred during one instance.  A logical conclusion would be that the common denominator was not the cause of failure, but that the newly introduced factors were.  Afterall, if the common denominator in both instances was the reason that they failed, then they would have failed in both instances.  However, they didn't.
Um...  That was the counter-position submitted by American Psychological Association.  I'm sure that their military expertise is top-notch!  Nice spin by the way...  I'll leave the final word with the General. 

Backpedaling?  Go back and read my other posts.  Please tell me where I ever stated that the Constitution enforces the right to vote.  I have repeatedly stated that the Constitution references the right to vote.  And if you've ever bothered to read the text of the Constitution, you'd realize that it expressly uses the phrase "the right to vote" (excluding the prepositional phrase that operates as an adjective).  My point has consistently been that the Constitution refers to the right.  Either the Constitution refers to something that doesn't exist, or the right to vote does exist.

And although you conveniently skipped over the portions of my response which deal with the case that you cited, it is very clear that the Supreme Court agrees with me that a right does exist.  So not only did you cite to a case which proved my point, but you then ignored the fact that I pointed this out. 
Unbelievable...  Let's try this.  You're contending that the Constitution's reference to a "right to vote" implies that the right exists without having to explicitly state that it is as a right.  Do you believe that any right can be implied?  Is an "implied right" as protected as an explicit right?  I don't buy it, and a lot of other folks don't either.  And, I don't completely buy into your response to the court case.  The states can define the qualifications for voting.  Those qualifications can't violate the Amendments that you have referenced, but the states can further qualify or deny voting as they see fit.  Again, there really isn't a Constitutional right to vote, just protections from certain qualifications or discrimination. 

Nope.  At one point I stated that I have no clue as to whether a pedophile's affinity toward children is genetic or not.  I also mentioned pedophiles while listing off groups of people to make a point, but I did not state anything about pedophiles in particular.  I've never made a statement that pedophiles should be able to teach, serve in the military or any other activity.  You're conjuring statements out of thin air, just like you did with the accusation that I was back pedaling from "my" statement that the right to vote is enforced in the Constitution, when I had merely stated that it was referred to in the Constitution.  I think this book may be of assistance to you:

Have I ever stated that cross dressers should not be able to join the military, or that they should not be able to announce openly that they are cross dressers?  Have I said anything like that about transgenders?  Have I said anything like that about pedophiles?

You make assumptions that I'm only applying this to homosexuals.  Your assumptions are wrong.  Unless you can point to a legitimate reason for any subgroup of people to not be in the military, then they can not be banned.  Unless you can point to a legitimate reason for disallowing them to voice their lifestyle preferences, then they can not be silenced.  This goes for every group:  homosexuals, heterosexuals, Satanists, Christians, racists, sexists, pedophiles, necrophiliacs, minorities, etc.  You can't legally deny a right or a privilege without a legitimate reason.  And before you misread that statement as well, let me make it very clear:  I am not stating that all or any of those groups should be in the military.  I am simply stating that before you ban any group, you must have a legitimate reason. 
You're nuckin' futs!  You've just contradicted yourself again!!!  You claim to have not said anything about transgenders, cross-dressers and pedophiles, then you follow up with your statement above.  Which is it, and who defines the "legitamte reason(s)" for the denial of anything?  I know that you're willing to apply this to all subgroups, and I also know that there are legitimate reasons for denying certain things to certain subgroups. 

How do you know them to be a pedophile unless they've acted on their desires?  I seriously doubt they're going to check "pedophile" on a military entrance exam.  My point was that we're not able to classify someone as a pedophile unless you know they've affected a child, and you're likely not going to know that they've done something to a child until they've been charged and/or convicted with child molestation, statutory rape, child pornography or something similar.  Therefore, the classification of a person as a pedophile is not going to be realized until the crime is committed. 
Now, you're just plain wacko...  Really going off the deep-end here. 
My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Vandy Vol

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #305 on: March 21, 2010, 11:09:38 PM »
So, you refute the General's position.  He's wrong, and you're right.  His real-world experience must be nothing compared to your vast military experience.  I see...

I don't refute it; the studies I posted refute it, and your own article cites a source that also refutes him.  I would tend to believe multiple sources, two of which are generated reports by multiple researchers, than the opinion of one General.

Um...  That was the counter-position submitted by American Psychological Association.  I'm sure that their military expertise is top-notch!  Nice spin by the way...  I'll leave the final word with the General.

You're taking the word of one American General on the reasons for the failure of the Dutch army to prevent the Russians and Germans from attacking Muslims in Bosnia.  This was a military conflict in which America was not involved (as far as actual combat goes) until after the 1995 massacre, yet you think that his military knowledge somehow informs him of why the Dutch failed in this particular conflict?

Let's not forget that his military experience is from a country's military that does not allow homosexuals to openly serve.  When you combine this with the fact that the Dutch suffered no negative consequences subsequent to lifting the gay ban the first time, this General's opinion fails to be very authoritative.  It doesn't take an experienced military genius to see that.  The fact that multiple other sources also refute his opinion doesn't help.

I'm also confused by the fact that you initially would not accept my sources and would not cite sources of your own because if you blindly relied upon the research and conclusions/opinions of others, then you'd "believe in global warming, extra-terrestrials, second-hand smoke, poverty causes crime, Santa Claus and the Tooff Fairy."  Yet you've mysteriously developed the urge to cite to the opinion of this American General and defend it adamantly despite your previous statements.

Unbelievable...  Let's try this.  You're contending that the Constitution's reference to a "right to vote" implies that the right exists without having to explicitly state that it is as a right.

The Constitution expressly refers to the "right to vote."  It either expressly refers to something that exists, or it expressly refers to something that doesn't exist.  Either way, there is no implicit reference; it's very explicit.

Do you believe that any right can be implied?  Is an "implied right" as protected as an explicit right?  I don't buy it, and a lot of other folks don't either.

Read Roe v. Wade.  You won't find the "right to privacy" expressly mentioned anywhere in the Constitution, yet the Supreme Court determined that it was an implied right.  Read Cruzan v. Director, Missouri Department of Health.  You won't find the "right to die" expressly mentioned anywhere in the Constitution, yet the Supreme Court determined that it was an implied right.

The Court's stance on implied rights not mentioned in the Constitution is supported by the text of the Constitution.  The Ninth Amendment reads, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."  Therefore, the Constitution acknowledges that there are rights which are not expressly enumerated in the Constitution, and it indicates that even those implied rights should be protected.

In case you also don't completely buy this response either, then you might want to look to the founding father who proposed the inclusion of the Ninth Amendment:

James Madison
Quote
It has been objected also against a Bill of Rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration; and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the General Government, and were consequently insecure. This is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; but, I conceive, that it may be guarded against. I have attempted it, as gentlemen may see by turning to the last clause of the fourth resolution.

But of course, all of this discussion about implied rights is irrelevant, as the Constitution expressly makes mention of the "right to vote."  Something isn't implicit if it's expressly named.  Nonetheless, even if you attempt to reject the argument that the right to vote is expressly within the Constitution, the above information shows that implied rights do exist.  Considering that the Court has acknowledged a right to vote, it would at the very least be an implied right, just as the right to privacy and the right to die are implied rights due to the Court's rulings.

And, I don't completely buy into your response to the court case.  The states can define the qualifications for voting.  Those qualifications can't violate the Amendments that you have referenced, but the states can further qualify or deny voting as they see fit.  Again, there really isn't a Constitutional right to vote, just protections from certain qualifications or discrimination.

The states can not deny voting rights to a group of people for any reason they want; it must be a legitimate one.  Read Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections.  The Court explains that the denial of the right to vote must meet constitutional standards, and it must not be either racially discriminatory or indefensible as rational policy.  It's worth noting that in this particular case, the Court determined that Virginia could not single out the poor and remove their right to vote.

You'll also be interested in reading the 1965 Voting Rights Act.  It requires some states to seek federal approval before altering their voting rules.  Broadly declaring that a state can deny voting rights as they see fit is ignoring the federal oversight involved via the judicial branch's ability to determine constitutionality and the federal approval required by legislation.

You're nuckin' futs!  You've just contradicted yourself again!!!  You claim to have not said anything about transgenders, cross-dressers and pedophiles, then you follow up with your statement above.

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but please work on your reading comprehension.  Not once did I state that I never said "anything" about any of those individuals.  See the following:

But hey, way to fabricate a strawman argument about me supporting pedophiles and cross dressers.  You have a knack for utilizing tactics that you incorrectly call me out on.

You were under the impression that in some point in time I had made an argument (or otherwise would make an argument) for supporting pedophiles in their attempts to be employed as teachers.  Yes, I did mention pedophiles, but no, I never once made any sort of statement that I supported them in anything.  Nor did I ever deny not mentioning pedophiles at all; I simply denied making an argument in support of them for anything.

. . . who defines the "legitamte reason(s)" for the denial of anything?  I know that you're willing to apply this to all subgroups, and I also know that there are legitimate reasons for denying certain things to certain subgroups.

You're asking a question that can be answered by looking at the basic structure of our government.  The legislative branch develops the laws.  Ultimately, however, the judicial branch is who decides if the law serves a legitimate purpose (or as the Court put it, it must be rational policy) or if it is a Constitutional violation.

Now, you're just plain wacko...  Really going off the deep-end here. 

Yes, I'm so crazy that I forgot that you can magically determine if someone is a pedophile before they actually commit a crime against a child.  School boards should look into hiring you so that they don't have to rely on criminal background checks to classify individuals as drug dealers, rapists, pedophiles, etc. before they even commit a crime.
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #306 on: March 22, 2010, 09:12:08 AM »
Vandy Vol is like the British at New Orleans.  The war is over, he lost pages and pages ago, but still he wanders into a firefight and gets slaughtered.  Carry on, General Pickering. 

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #307 on: March 22, 2010, 10:18:54 AM »
Vandy Vol is like the British at New Orleans.  The war is over, he lost pages and pages ago, but still he wanders into a firefight and gets slaughtered.  Carry on, General Pickering. 
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :haha: :haha: :bong: :high: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I'm telling you now (and you can write it down) that if he sustains that level -- seven or eight games -- next season, you should consider that a successful effort on his part.  Of course there are qualifiers depending on which games he loses and how dreadful AU looks in those losses, but just maintaining the position would be a win.
You can take the ten-win predictions and file them with the wolf-boy pictures from The Globe.

GarMan

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #308 on: March 22, 2010, 12:08:13 PM »
I'm also confused by the fact that you initially would not accept my sources and would not cite sources of your own because if you blindly relied upon the research and conclusions/opinions of others, then you'd "believe in global warming, extra-terrestrials, second-hand smoke, poverty causes crime, Santa Claus and the Tooff Fairy."  Yet you've mysteriously developed the urge to cite to the opinion of this American General and defend it adamantly despite your previous statements.
I don't blindly believe it or "defend it adamantly".  I just find it interesting that a retired general "comes out" with the exact same position that I've stated in this very thread.  Plus, the fact that you can't seem to have an opinion of your own without cited references, I thought it would help to expand your horizons a little. 

The Constitution expressly refers to the "right to vote."  It either expressly refers to something that exists, or it expressly refers to something that doesn't exist.  Either way, there is no implicit reference; it's very explicit.
Right...  Do you think before you type this stuff?  Explicit?  Really??? 

The Court's stance on implied rights not mentioned in the Constitution is supported by the text of the Constitution.  The Ninth Amendment reads, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."  Therefore, the Constitution acknowledges that there are rights which are not expressly enumerated in the Constitution, and it indicates that even those implied rights should be protected.
I'm good with that explanation and generally agree with it.  You've shown that a right could "exist", but without "enumeration" in the Constitution, it is not explicit and cannot necessarily be considered as Constitutionally protected.  This is where many have a problem. 

The states can not deny voting rights to a group of people for any reason they want; it must be a legitimate one.  Read Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections.  The Court explains that the denial of the right to vote must meet constitutional standards, and it must not be either racially discriminatory or indefensible as rational policy.  It's worth noting that in this particular case, the Court determined that Virginia could not single out the poor and remove their right to vote.

You'll also be interested in reading the 1965 Voting Rights Act.  It requires some states to seek federal approval before altering their voting rules.  Broadly declaring that a state can deny voting rights as they see fit is ignoring the federal oversight involved via the judicial branch's ability to determine constitutionality and the federal approval required by legislation.
Again, your quest for a pissing match...  I never challenged any of the above.  You're attempting to make an argument where one does not exist.  It's like challenging the "wetness" of water.  Frustrating and annoying... 

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but please work on your reading comprehension.  Not once did I state that I never said "anything" about any of those individuals. 

You were under the impression that in some point in time I had made an argument (or otherwise would make an argument) for supporting pedophiles in their attempts to be employed as teachers.  Yes, I did mention pedophiles, but no, I never once made any sort of statement that I supported them in anything.  Nor did I ever deny not mentioning pedophiles at all; I simply denied making an argument in support of them for anything.
Oh...  So now, we're playing the literal game.  I see.  By the way, it seems that you don't have to try...

You're asking a question that can be answered by looking at the basic structure of our government.  The legislative branch develops the laws.  Ultimately, however, the judicial branch is who decides if the law serves a legitimate purpose (or as the Court put it, it must be rational policy) or if it is a Constitutional violation.
This is unbelievable.  Wake me up when you're done espousing this schit...  In this thread, you seemed pretty quick to discredit everyone else's "legitamate reason(s)".  Now, you're throwing this out? 

Yes, I'm so crazy that I forgot that... 
Seriously, do you hear yourself?  Was it really necessary to walk down that street? 
My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.  - Winston Churchill

Eating and sleeping are the only activities that should be allowed to interrupt a man's enjoyment of his cigar.  - Mark Twain

Nothing says "Obey Me" like a bloody head on a fence post!  - Stewie Griffin

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."  - Ayn Rand

Vandy Vol

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #309 on: March 22, 2010, 01:42:46 PM »
"You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on." - Dean Martin

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #310 on: March 22, 2010, 02:09:29 PM »

Vandy Vol

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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #311 on: March 22, 2010, 02:50:25 PM »
Really?  Because right to vote is only discussed in subsequent amendments, not the original Constitution and at no time even in those is the phrase "right to vote" utilized in a manner that supports your position.

Are you suggesting that the right to free speech and the right to bear arms are not rights or are otherwise "lesser" rights because they're in an Amendment?  The Supreme Court has never stated that Amendments are not part of the Constitution or otherwise less important.

My position is that the right to vote is indeed a right.  The Constitution refers to it as a right and the Supreme Court refers to it as a right.  Additionally, the Supreme Court has determined that the right to vote can not be removed if it violates Constitutional standards or is otherwise not a rational policy.  Thus, my position is very well supported.

Other than the right to prevent people from voting for reasons of race, color or previous servitude (1870); the right to deny voting privileges based on sex (1920); the right to deny voting for unpaid tax (1964); or to deny those over 18 (1971) the Constitution (and its amendments) doesn't prevent states from barring citizens to vote for any legitimate reason.

The Supreme Court disagrees with you.  They prevented a state from denying the poor the right to vote despite the fact that there is no Amendment which mentions anything about the poor.

In fact, perhaps you should review Amendment 14:

2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Perhaps you should review Supreme Court case law.  They are, afterall, the authoritative figure on constitutional interpretation, and they have determined that states can not remove the right to vote from a group of people for any reason they wish.
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #312 on: March 22, 2010, 03:15:50 PM »
Are you suggesting that the right to free speech and the right to bear arms are not rights or are otherwise "lesser" rights because they're in an Amendment?  The Supreme Court has never stated that Amendments are not part of the Constitution or otherwise less important.

My position is that the right to vote is indeed a right.  The Constitution refers to it as a right and the Supreme Court refers to it as a right.  Additionally, the Supreme Court has determined that the right to vote can not be removed if it violates Constitutional standards or is otherwise not a rational policy.  Thus, my position is very well supported.

The Supreme Court disagrees with you.  They prevented a state from denying the poor the right to vote despite the fact that there is no Amendment which mentions anything about the poor.

Perhaps you should review Supreme Court case law.  They are, afterall, the authoritative figure on constitutional interpretation, and they have determined that states can not remove the right to vote from a group of people for any reason they wish.

Ok, so now you say it's not in the Constitution, but has been interpreted by the Supreme Court.  That has nothing to do with one being lesser or greater, it only goes to your inaccuracy. 

Your original contention was that it was very plainly in the Constitution.  It's not.  So you shift to later Supreme Court rulings. 

The Supreme Court has ruled in specific cases, but has not issued any mandate that says voting rights CANNOT be restricted for any reason.  States do have the right to restrict such -- pending SC review, of course -- and you certainly cannot determine how the court will rule the next time (if there is one) this issue is brought before it. 

There has been discussion of restricting people who've had DUI arrests from voting.  The state may determine that if you don't participate in the national healthcare plan you can't vote.  Those who are penalized may petition that their rights have been abridged and could potentially have that case heard by the SC.  Then, perhaps, you'd see yet another ruling. 

To assume as broadly as you do is wrong, however. 



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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #313 on: March 22, 2010, 03:26:56 PM »
Ok, so now you say it's not in the Constitution, but has been interpreted by the Supreme Court.  That has nothing to do with one being lesser or greater, it only goes to your inaccuracy. 

Your original contention was that it was very plainly in the Constitution.  It's not.  So you shift to later Supreme Court rulings.

Nope.  I never once said it wasn't in the Constitution.  Stating that the Supreme Court has ruled X does not mean that it is no longer in the Constitution.  In fact, one of the Supreme Court's major roles is to interpret the Constitution.  Therefore, when they make a ruling on something constitutional, they are ruling that it is in the Constitution.  So no, my reliance on the Supreme Court's rulings does not contradict or negate the fact that the right to vote is still in the Constitution.

The Supreme Court has ruled in specific cases, but has not issued any mandate that says voting rights CANNOT be restricted for any reason.  States do have the right to restrict such -- pending SC review, of course -- and you certainly cannot determine how the court will rule the next time (if there is one) this issue is brought before it.

If you've ever read a Supreme Court ruling, then you realize that they often make broad rules governing a variety of situations.  Although they ruled on Virginia's specific ban on the poor in Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections, they also stated the general rule that voting rights can not be removed if it is not a rational policy.  Their ruling further defined constitutional protections for voters; it did not only apply to poor voters.

There has been discussion of restricting people who've had DUI arrests from voting.  The state may determine that if you don't participate in the national healthcare plan you can't vote.  Those who are penalized may petition that their rights have been abridged and could potentially have that case heard by the SC.  Then, perhaps, you'd see yet another ruling. 

According to the Voting Rights Act, these changes would have to be approved by the federal government.  And despite the fact that state legislators make succeed in making such laws, that doesn't make them constitutionally valid.  Laws have been overturned.
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Re: Man Up - Repealing "Don't Ask Don't Tell "
« Reply #314 on: March 22, 2010, 03:50:14 PM »
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