Religion Poll

[AUTiger1]

I am an agnostic in the fact that I have no idea whether god exists or not. I'm not going to deny the existence of god, just like I am not going to say that he certainly exists. I don't have a clue.

I believe that IF there is an "all knowing, all loving" god, like many religions claim, surely he won't send 2/3rd's of the world to hell for not believing in the correct religion. I have no idea which religion is right, or if any of them are right.

If there is a god, I would like to think that I will get into heaven by living a good life and adhering to the golden rule, and other basic rules of humanity.

Thanks for the answer. I have a co-worker who will get extremely pissed if you call him an atheist and he will tell you that he is agnostic.  He will also vehemently deny the existence of a deity of any kind. In his mind "poop just happened" and there is no arguing with him that is the stance of a hardcore atheist not an agnostic.

[Aubie16]

This also begs the question that if there is a God in the most basic sense, as in an intelligent design, does that necessarily mean there is a heaven and hell? To me, the concept of a good place you go when you're good and a bad place you go when you're bad, that was previously believed to be in the sky and below the earth's crust until that was proven to be scientifically impossible, and is now believed to be some other dimension outside of this universe, is a little Santa Clausish.

Yes...I've often wondered if these were originally invented (similar to Wes's thinking) in order to get men to behave in a civilized manner and control them. Kind of a scare tactic. Who knows.

[Aubie16]

Thanks for the answer. I have a co-worker who will get extremely pissed if you call him an atheist and he will tell you that he is agnostic.  He will also vehemently deny the existence of a deity of any kind. In his mind "poop just happened" and there is no arguing with him that is the stance of a hardcore atheist not an agnostic.

I think the problem could be that, in certain areas of the country, atheist has such a negative connotation that it almost stirs up images of satan worshipping, etc. He may be trying to avoid being associated with that.

[Ogre]

This is an interesting topic for me, as I have struggled with my faith over the past few years.  I was raised a Southern Baptist.  I believe in God, and I believe that Jesus is the Son of God.  I believe that God sent Jesus to earth to die for my sins (and boy have I sinned) so that I may be saved from sin and spend eternity in Heaven.

All that said, I will be the first to admit that although I am a believer in Christ, based on how I currently live my life I am not a follower of Christ.  Just look at my avatar if you need proof.  I know that I am not living my life like I have been called to, and yet I don't do anything to change myself.  That's probably worse than being an atheist in some Christians' eyes.

I know that a lot of my actions are not considered moral or acceptable in God's (or society's) eyes, but I continue to go down that path.  I'm not sure why that is - but in the back of my mind I think that one day I will get back on the straight-and-narrow.  Then again, I'm 30 years old with a kid.  If not now, when?  

[AUTiger1]

If you're not, then you didn't answer the poll.

The point is that I don't believe Chad was intending "indoctrination" in a pejorative sense.  Only that most people will accept the religion of their childhood or reject religion entirely.  There doesn't appear to be a lot of religion-jumping.

I took what he said to be a snide little swipe at one's belief in a higher power.  True enough that a lot of people believe what they believe b/c of their cultural upbringing.  It is also true that some people don't.  Koas may or may not be one of those.  I work with a guy (well he is on a different contract, but sits down the hall) that was a Muslim until he was converted by a missionary in his twenties.  Something was said to him that made him question his faith and he began to ask questions and look for answers. He is a perfect example of someone who came to his own conclusions.  It doesn't happen everyday, but it does happen.  I just thought it to be a broad brush he was painting with.

I marked Christian in the poll, although I don't consider myself to be one.  

[AUChizad]

I took what he said to be a snide little swipe at one's belief in a higher power.

I'm sorry you took it that way, as that was not what was intended. I haven't corrected Wes in his assumptions, because he is exactly correct.

I marked Christian in the poll, although I don't consider myself to be one.  

Interesting. So what would you consider yourself? Why mark Christian when you are not?

[AUChizad]

Because everyone loves a good pie chart...


Only Christians and Muslims are more popular than "nonreligious" people. And even those are divided into sects whose ideologies are at odds with each other. Of course in fairness, "nonreligious" is segmented as well.

Back to this for a moment...

I find it fascinating that Judaism is the least popular religion of those charted, including Sikhism (0.36% vs. 0.22%).

There's shockingly almost twice as many Sikhs as there are Jews.

I guess that's because many ethnically Jewish people fall into the "nonreligious" category when it comes to religion. Still that's far lower than my misconception prior to looking up the numbers.

[Kaos]

This can't be right.  How can 0.22% of the population control all the major television networks and movie companies?  

More than 0.22% of the people in show business are Jewish.  

And how do you explain all those bagels?

[AUChizad]

Since I wanted to avoid "getting into it" in another thread, and this thread is entirely about "it", I figured I'd respond to a post that I bit my tongue on earlier here.

I agree with pretty much everything you're saying.

Except I don't believe there is a real threat to expel kids for wearing crosses or having a Bible in their satchel.

I agree with most of what he said as well....and to clarify, my post wasn't supposed to be so much specifically about "god in school" or the US being a "Christian nation".  It was more about letting our historical morals fade into European apathy.  And while I don't think public schools need to be teaching kids the Bible, there is also no reason to have the Bible and the Christian heritage of our nation ignored and specifically deleted from our history just because that history is being taught in a public school.

As much as liberals want it completely out of school and our history....it is our history, and it's just putting your head in the sand (not "you" literally) to think otherwise.

Here are a few quotes from Ben Franklin:

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

The history of our founding fathers is littered with these kinds of quotes and discussions and I could post pages and pages of quotes by Franklin, Hamilton, Hancock, Henry, Adams (all of them), Jay, Jefferson Madison, etc.  It's everywhere... except where it's been deleted or left out intentionally in our current history books.  

To me, there is a big difference in expecting the government to push Christianity (which I do NOT expect in any form or fashion), or simply allowing it to exist in it's historical context in regards to our country.  THAT I do expect and get really irritated with they take it out based on the "church and state" argument.

While the model of our three branches is similar and partly derived from other government ideas.  What did Madison read at the Constitutional Convention to explain where the model comes from?  He read Isaiah 33:22 which says "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king".  He credited this passage as the inspiration for the idea of the three branches.  You will never, never, never find that referenced in a public school history book.  Seem pretty relevant to me, in a historical context, seeing as it was read at he constitutional convention and read by James Madison.  But nope, it's from the Bible and has the word "Lord" in it....gottta go, no matter what the historical significance or relevance.

Anyway, most of my point in the first post is reflected in Franklin's quote above where he says "do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?".  See, the founders thought their faith in God to be very important and relevant to their political ideas and aspirations, and more importantly to the people of our country...which is why John Adams said this...

"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798

Sure, we've changed a lot.  And again, I'm not expecting the government to push Christianity on America  But I'm also tired of them going out of their way to push it away from America.  In in the much bigger picture (and point of my first post), I'm tired of "morals" and "goodness" (no matter the source...Christian or otherwise) being mocked and shoved off to the side.  Christian or not, the more we do that, the worse our society gets....anyone that's been alive 30+ years can see that.

I can find an abundance of quotes from founding fathers that support the opposite.

Thomas Jefferson:

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." 1787 letter to his nephew

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." Unknown

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." Unknown

"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus told us indeed that 'God is a spirit,' but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally, held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an etherial gas; but still matter." letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." Notes on Virginia

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" Letter to von Humboldt, 1813

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" Letter to H. Spafford, 1814

"But a short time elapsed after the death of the great reformer of the Jewish religion, before his principles were departed from by those who professed to be his special servants, and perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind, and aggrandizing their oppressors in Church and State." in a letter to S. Kercheval, 1810

"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'" From Jefferson's biography

"I never told my religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I have judged others' religions by their lives, for it is from our lives and not our words that our religions must be read."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"The authors of the gospels were unlettered and ignorant men and the teachings of Jesus have come to us mutilated, misstated and unintelligible."

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God."

James Madison:

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." April 1, 1774

"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

John Adams

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it."

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because of suspected heresy? Remember the Index Expurgato-rius, the Inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter, and the guillotine; and, oh! horrible, the rack! This is as bad, if not worse, than a slow fire. Nor should the Lion's Mouth be forgotten. Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1,500 years." letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted in In God We Trust and 2000 Years of Disbelief

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles." letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?" etter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world." "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D. Cardi

"Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it." letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Di

"It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [formation of the American governments] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven..."

Abraham Lincoln

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." Joseph Lewis quoting Lincoln in a 1924 speech in New York

"My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures have become clearer and stronger with advancing years, and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them." Lincoln in a letter to Judge J.S. Wakefield, after the death of Willie Lincoln

Susan B. Anthony

"The religious persecution of the ages has been done under what was claimed to be the command of God." Rufus K. Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires."

"What you should say to outsiders is that a Christian has neither more nor less rights in our Association than an atheist. When our platform becomes too narrow for people of all creeds and of no creeds, I myself shall not stand upon it." Susan B. Anthony: A Biography, by Kathleen Barry, New York University Press, 1988, p.310

Benjamin Franklin

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." Franklin's Autobiography

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the want of it."

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

Ulysses S. Grant

"Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and the state forever separated."

George Washington

"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society."     Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792  

Theodore Roosevelt

"To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life." letter to J. C. Martin, 9 November 1908

"I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State; that public moneys shall not be used for the purpose of advancing any particular creed; and therefore that the public schools shall be nonsectarian and no public moneys appropriated for sectarian schools." Carnegie Hall address, 12 October 1915

[Kaos]

Theodore Roosevelt wasn't a founding father. Neither was Lincoln. Or Susan B.  But I digress. 

The quotes you referenced actually don't support your position at all. 

Nothing in Jefferson's quotes indicated that he didn't believe in Christ or Christianity, only that he lamented the manner in which some chose to express it. 

Same with the others. 

Is that really any surprise considering that this country was first populated (white populated) by refugees from religious persecution? 

When Jefferson says ""The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." " is that his hope or his dread?  There's no context there. 

I believe that the day will come when followers of Jesus are mocked and his worth given little credence (Flying Spaghetti Monster anyone?).  Does that mean I wish for that day or am comforted by it?  No, only that I feel it is inevitable.

Are you seriously surprised that the leaders of a nation founded on religious freedom would be hesitant to hand authority over to a sovereign church since that was the life their fathers had fled to establish this country?  To conclude that in doing so these men rejected the tenets of Christianity is a completely illogical leap. 

Their position was against a church state -- the type of government they fled in England -- not against the moral values of Christianity. 

When Madison says "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." of course I agree. People throughout history have used the robe of Jesus to shield their absurd acts.  Oral Roberts locked himself in a tower and said Jesus would kill him unless he raised several million dollars.  That was absurd and done in Jesus' name.  But you can't extrapolate that to mean that everything associated with Jesus or Christianity is absurd. 

Adams questions the acts committed in the name of Christ.  How did we get to the point where we are willing to kill because someone believes differently?  I ask the same question today.  Why do we fight against Muslims -- and they us -- because we choose to worship the SAME GOD in a different manner?  Does my question somehow make me less a Christian or mean that I reject Christian values?  Hardly. 

I know I give you a hard time about comprehension, but in this instance I don't think you really understand what the founding fathers were saying.  You're taking their words and using them to create a position that I'm positive didn't exist.  Nothing you quoted shows in any way shape or form that any of the men rejected Christianity or its values. 

The "church" yes.  But you also have to understand the context of church as it existed in that time. 

I have no interest in a church state.  Doesn't mean I'm anti Christian.

[AUTiger1]

I'm sorry you took it that way, as that was not what was intended. I haven't corrected Wes in his assumptions, because he is exactly correct.

No biggie.  A wise man once told me when talking politics, you need to learn to check your feelings at the door ($1 to wes)  Same rule applies to religion as well.

Interesting. So what would you consider yourself? Why mark Christian when you are not?

Pretty much read Ogre's response.

I have read and studied for years.  I have asked many questions along the way.  Yes, I believe in God, too much going on all at the same time for it to be just one big coincidence in my mind.  I believe that the same God wants me to do what is right, live a good moral life, obey his commandments and try my best to live "the straight and narrow".  I believe that we are a creation of his image and that he loves us and wants us to love him.  Do I do those things?  Not even close. I do some things that are acceptable, I donate to charity, I genuinely try to help people that are in need and when they need it.  I try to be polite and courteous to everyone most of the time. I go to church from time to time (more often that not). I do a lot of things that make me look good in others eyes.......but.......

Those things are not enough though. I believe that one has to try and live a Christian life before they can even consider to call themselves Christian. My wife is a good example of this.  She tries her hardest, she lives her life in a good Christian way 90% of the time.  Just b/c she might say poop, hell, damn, ass and bitch from time to time and have margarita from time to time, doesn't meant that she is a bad person or not a Christian. When she messes up, as she like to call it, she knows that she has to ask for forgiveness.  She understands as well as I do that the bible teaches that we are not perfect and will sin.  She chooses to let it bother her and do what her teachings tell her in order to make it right.  Me, I don't ask and most of the time I don't care, nor does it bother my conscious.  

The bible, the "inspired word of God" (not his literal word, man had his hand in it so you know some things got screwed up along the way) if you choose to believe it will tell you that many will hear the word and many will believe the word, but many will not accept word.  Now when I was early teens I was baptized into Christ, but now that relationship is pretty much non-existent b/c I no longer follow his teachings.  I don't believe in the once saved always saved doctrine that some do.  

I am too lazy to look it up, but in Peter's (II Peter I think) teachings he says be holy in all you do, that if you escape worldliness and accept Christ only to fall back in, you are worse off in the end than you were at the beginning, and it would have been better to have not known the way of righteousness than to have known it and turned your back on it .  (Paraphrase)  That leads me to believe that one can lose their salvation. Like Ogre said that could be far worse than being an atheist in some Christian's eyes.  I may choose to follow that path again someday, I may not.  I can't say with certainty.  

In short, I marked it, b/c I believe in the Christan God and Christian views, but that doesn't mean that I consider myself a Christian.  I don't live my life according to Christian teachings nor do I even pretend to try.  

 
EDIT: These are my personal beliefs, if someone else looks at being a Christian differently, that is up to them and their right.  I don't claim to be right, just stated what I believe.  I will not judge you nor bash you and your beliefs.

[Aubie16]

If we're quoting Jefferson...here is my favorite:

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

[Kaos]

If we're quoting Jefferson...here is my favorite:

And again that doesn't indicate Jefferson's lack of belief in a deity. 

Blind devotion is just that.  Blind.  You should always ask questions and search for answers. 

[AUChizad]

Theodore Roosevelt wasn't a founding father. Neither was Lincoln. Or Susan B.  But I digress.

Fair enough, but I thought they were prominent American figures with quotes that would be shocking coming from a President today. Those you mentioned besides Roosevelt all appear on US currency. Roosevelt's on Mt. Rushmore. That's got to count for something.

The quotes you referenced actually don't support your position at all.


Nothing in Jefferson's quotes indicated that he didn't believe in Christ or Christianity, only that he lamented the manner in which some chose to express it.  

Same with the others.  

Is that really any surprise considering that this country was first populated (white populated) by refugees from religious persecution?  

I think you confused my position (in the third party thread I am referencing here). That is probably my fault, since it may be unclear as to the context of that post. Basically jad was implying that our founding fathers wanted us to be a Christian nation.

Perhaps it is clearer if I presented the previous two posts in the exchange between jad and I.

When social, moral-value type issues take a back seat, or we let go of them and stop fighting for them....the effects are much longer lasting, and honestly, nearly impossible to reverse.  Once the Bible was taken out of schools, do you really ever seeing it making it's way back in?  No way, that ship has sailed, it's a thing of the past...we're no longer a Christian nation, so the leaders of the left have declared.  From a moral-value stance, we continue to erode.  If we continue to keep God and Biblical influence locked inside the church, society will continue to slide.  If we keep those things locked up inside the church, it won't be long before that's the only place you find what we used to be.  We'll be a Godless, European-moral nation on this side of the Atlantic.  We will seize to be America.

I'd rather not get too deep in another controversial political thread (especially the most controversial of all topics), but this kind of thinking is the problem, in my opinion.

We were never a "Christian" nation that was intended to have our schools indoctrinate a state religion. To believe that we are is to completely defy and selectively ignore everything our founding fathers stood for.

When a politician starts advocating these kinds of things, or outwardly claims to take the Bible literally, he loses credibility with me.

Now that being said, I can't see how you can look at many of these quotes and not ascertain that those being quoted are deists at best.

When Jefferson says ""The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." " is that his hope or his dread?  There's no context there.  

I believe that the day will come when followers of Jesus are mocked and his worth given little credence (Flying Spaghetti Monster anyone?).  Does that mean I wish for that day or am comforted by it?  No, only that I feel it is inevitable.

While I can't say without equivocation what he meant, I feel like equating Christianity to a religion that is completely dead and used only in the context of literature is pretty clearly a statement on the fictitious nature of the Christian religion. I'm not saying it's impossible that he meant what you said, but I think he was extremely misquoted if that part was left out. That's be like quoting someone as saying "I believe in raping puppies", when the actual quote was "I believe in raping puppies being a punishable crime."

[AUChizad]

If we're quoting Jefferson...here is my favorite:

That was the first one quoted.